Movement Issues

[gran_orco]

The two move rates are walk and sprint, I can't find rules for running.

Unless I've overlooked them, I was considering a house rules where a character can run double his move rate (so 16 metres for humans), and still get a CA albeit at a -40 penalty.

What you think?

No, no, no :lol: PAGE 63:
"Sprinting: Multiply the base Movement by five and subtract
the Armour Penalty. The result is how fast the Adventurer can
move during short chases, or when charging. For example, an
Adventurer wearing full plate armour can sprint or charge at 31
metres per Combat Round."

Unless the charging creature willingly stops or is forcibly stopped dead, the charge only allows a single Combat Action for the Attacker and the Defender during that round.

 

[Grimolde]

The two move rates are walk and sprint, I can't find rules for running.

Unless I've overlooked them, I was considering a house rules where a character can run double his move rate (so 16 metres for humans), and still get a CA albeit at a -40 penalty.

What you think?

No, no, no :lol: PAGE 63:
"Sprinting: Multiply the base Movement by five and subtract
the Armour Penalty. The result is how fast the Adventurer can
move during short chases, or when charging. For example, an
Adventurer wearing full plate armour can sprint or charge at 31
metres per Combat Round."

Unless the charging creature willingly stops or is forcibly stopped dead, the charge only allows a single Combat Action for the Attacker and the Defender during that round.

I keep forgetting that a character can move any rate 'up to' his sprint move and still attack

Thank you

 

[Grimolde]

Pretty much what I was thinking, though I'll probably house rule that you can. Perhaps suffer an attack out of sequence, even if the opponent has no CAs left.

I'd rather just disallow post-action-movement than give away free CAs to anyone who is lucky enough to be within range of a post-action-mover. If you want to do something then move, sorry you have wait till your next CA to do the "move" bit.

You're probably right.

Sometimes players don't get it all their own way

 

[PhilHibbs]

Sometimes players don't get it all their own way

The rules apply to the enemy as well, I'm sure a player would be upset if an enemy hit them and then ran off.

 

[Grimolde]

The two move rates are walk and sprint, I can't find rules for running.

Unless I've overlooked them, I was considering a house rules where a character can run double his move rate (so 16 metres for humans), and still get a CA albeit at a -40 penalty.

What you think?

No, no, no :lol: PAGE 63:
"Sprinting: Multiply the base Movement by five and subtract
the Armour Penalty. The result is how fast the Adventurer can
move during short chases, or when charging. For example, an
Adventurer wearing full plate armour can sprint or charge at 31
metres per Combat Round."

Unless the charging creature willingly stops or is forcibly stopped dead, the charge only allows a single Combat Action for the Attacker and the Defender during that round.

I keep forgetting that a character can move any rate 'up to' his sprint move and still attack

Thank you

Ok I've been over analyzing again and this has gotten my confused again.

Sprinting: Multiply the base Movement by five and subtract the Armour Penalty. The result is how fast the Adventurer can move during short chases, or when charging. For example, an Adventurer wearing full plate armour can sprint or charge at 31 metres per Combat Round.

It was said earlier in a thread that a sprint takes up your entire combat turn. This may be the case, but apparently you can charge up to Move 8 x5, which is effectively a sprint.

So just to make sure, can a character sprint and attack with 1 CA? Going by the above I'd have to say yes

 

[Dan True]

I'm wondering why a character can move and act (grab torch), but isn't allowed to act (grab torch) and then move. Why is this?

The reason is that you are trying to force a turn-based behaviour onto something that is inherently parallel - real world fights. Since you try to do this, you need to set a stop-point where each action stops and another starts. Logically you need to set the stop-point where actions occur, since if else people may not get a chance to react to stuff they would be able to in reality.
The moment the action happen, say the moment someone graps a pouch from you, it is completely irrelevant if he has moved 3 metres, haven't moved or sprinted for 200 metres (it matter in other ways, like if you discover him or not) - you have the same time to react to him grabbing the pouch regardless.
If you do not stop the turn the moment he is done with the action, then it suddenly matters how long he has moved before. Take for example the movement system in D&D:

Situation 1:
I spent my last turn moving towards a target. My character now stands 5 feet away from a guy I wan't to grab a pouch from.
I take a 5-foot step, grab the pouch (a standard action) and move (a move action). A GM might rule that the targets gets a chance to react, but it's not in the rules as default. When the turn ends I am far away from the target.

Situation 2:
I spent my last turn moving towards a target. My character now stands 10 feet away from a guy I wan't to grab a pouch from.
I move 10 feet (a move action) and grab the pouch (a standard action). I can now do nothing more until my next turn, and the target can thus react.

See? In reality I would have been moving towards the target in one fluid motion, so it really should not matter in the game system whether or not I start the turn 5 or 10 feet away from the target.

If you allow people to move after actions, you run into this or similar problems. People that can act and move away simply because it isn't their turn - even though they logically should get a turn to react.

On another thing: I love the clarification that you can move under other CA's - it creates an incredibly fluid system, which is much more reminiscent of real life.

- Dan

 

[Grimolde]

You can charge your movement - what you have already moved in the round. So if the first think you do is charge, you can charge 8 m.

- Dan[/quote]
But the rules state on page 63 that you can charge up to your sprint movement.

 

[Grimolde]

On another thing: I love the clarification that you can move under other CA's - it creates an incredibly fluid system, which is much more reminiscent of real life.

- Dan

I understand the reasons for not being able to act then move. Thanks Dan.

But to be honest, I'm still confused about movement in general.

You can move up to 8 metres and still attack, I think this is the ruling.

You can even move 2m and act, move another 2m and act, move another 2m, then act, up to the point you move up to 8 meteres in one Combat Round.

But sprinting and attacking? Apparently you can sprint up to your move 8 x5 and you can charge up to your move 8 x5. It has been said you can only sprint in a combat round and that's it. Is that the difference between sprinting and charging? If you choose not to attack you've merely sprinted?

 

[Dan True]

You can charge your movement - what you have already moved in the round. So if the first think you do is charge, you can charge 8 m.

- Dan

But the rules state on page 63 that you can charge up to your sprint movement.

Yep, I've realised this too since I wrote that.

But to be honest, I'm still confused about movement in general.

You can move up to 8 metres and still attack, I think this is the ruling.

Yep, if you have sufficient movement left.

But sprinting and attacking? Apparently you can sprint up to your move 8 x5 and you can charge up to your move 8 x5. It has been said you can only sprint in a combat round and that's it. Is that the difference between sprinting and charging? If you choose not to attack you've merely sprinted?

I am also pondering on this now. In the combat example it states:

"Action moves back to Thrane ... He also has room enough to charge - and declares this as his next CA. The games master says that Thrace will connect with the final trollkin on his next CA".

This implies that yes, you can charge up to 5x8 metres, but it still takes up the rest of the turn (or maybe just the whole CA) and you then only connect on this next round.

I think that we need to face the fact, that RuneQuest combat, was not designed for use with miniatures on a battlemap, but with a more fluid and less "there is precisely 3,5 metres to the trollkin"-precise way of handling distances. And we also need to face that these rules are just guidelines, we cannot except a coverage of any kind of possibility like most other systems try to ... which leaves much more room for situation specific happenings.

So, just use your best judgment about what is possible in the situation. Although I understand the need for guidelines and clarification - I could certainly use some too. But more than this, I fear some of these black spots might scare newcomers away. Hopefully the CA and CM system will keep em here.

- Dan

 

[Grimolde]

In an attempt to make sense of it all, I've gone through the rulebook and compiled all the 'movey' and 'chargey' rulesy stuff here:

Movement page 11
Human Adventurers have a base Movement rate of 8 metres per Combat Round.

Combat Rounds page 48
In a combat round, move a distance, usually a number of metres, equal to his Movement score (see page 63).

Movement
Standard human base movement is 8 metres per Combat Round at walking pace. If sprinting, the movement rate is multiplied by 5...

Sprinting page 63
Multiply the base Movement by 5 and subtract the Armour Penalty. The result is how fast the Adventurer can move during short chases, or when charging. For example, an Adventurer wearing full plate armour can sprint or charge at 31 metres per Combat Round.

Charge page 84
By spending 1 CA, if enough space, the Adventurer may charge into close combat, combining the movement with an attack. If successful, damage may be increased. See Charging on page 89.

Move page 84
By spending 1 CA, if unengaged, the Adventurer may move his full movement rate.

Charging page 90
Unless the charging creature willingly stops or is forcibly stopped dead, the charge only allows a single Combat Action for the Attacker…

 

[Loz]

Sprinting and charging are differentiated only by their intent.

When you charge, you're charging at, or into, a target with the intent to cause damage. When you sprint, you're simply expending energy to move at speed without that movement terminating in potential damage.

Let's say my Movement gives me 31 metres during the combat round. I'm on the edge of a melee - say 15 metres away - and have spent a round loosing arrows into the foes. Then I draw my spear and decide to move into it.

I can take my time, circling around the melee and finding an opportunity at a steady pace equal to my 8m movement rate. Or I could decide to sprint to the other side of the melee to take up a better position. My sprinting movement would get me clear across the scene of the battle during the next combat round (I can sprint 31m and its 15 metres into the heart of the melee, enough to get through it and out the other side - but I have to use all my CA to do so). I'm not attacking; I'm focused on getting across a distance so I'm in a better position to attack in the next round.

Or I could charge in, at the same movement rate, and, on my last CA bulldoze into that great troll who's busy bludgeoning one of my comrades. He might not be a full 31 metres away from me; he might be closer - but the fact is I'm using my movement and CAs to gain that distance and build momentum with the express purpose of gaining additional damage from my charge. Of course, if that troll is 32 or 33 metres away, my charge movement won't be enough to reach him in the same round and will have to take up a portion of the next. In this kind of case, covering the remaining distance would take up just one of my CAs leaving me with what remains to complete the attack. Depending on the troll's strike rank, he might then have the option to Stand Fast and receive my charge or evade it.

What this means is that charging requires a certain degree of judgement. Can you close the distance and attack in the same round? Will the opponent have any CA left to defend? If you answer Yes to the first question and No to the second, charging can be utterly lethal. If the answers are No and Yes, then don't execute that charge. If you have to continue the charge in the next round and your SR is higher than the opponent then, if you strike him successfully, your damage is going to be enhanced, and you might put him down quickly, so it might be worth the effort.

I think that ultimately you're over-thinking and over-analyzing what's happening here. Despite combat's granularity, movement during a Combat Round is handled as an abstraction. In this way you can move and expend CA. However when you're dedicating yourself to a particular sort of movement - like a sprint or charge - it demands your full concentration.

Does this help you get a clearer impression?

 

[Deleriad]

The basic insight here is that the movement rules are somewhat abstract. Unfortunately they don't look abstract. They aren't, however, integrated with the Combat Action system.

That approach works well when you are not using miniatures and grids and you're prepared to free-form it. In that case you really don't want to track every metre moved.

If you are using grids then you might prefer to use movement integrated with CAs. In that case I use the following:
1/2 move: can be performed along with an action.
Normal move: move full movement rate. Can't be performed with an other action but can still defend.
Run: spend X CAs (minimum 2) to move (x+1) times your normal rate. Can't do anything else (not even defend self) until your next turn. E.g. spend 2 CAs to move 3*movement rate.

It works ok. I would also add an extra reaction called "flee" which basically means that if someone 30m away decides to charge you you can just run away rather than stand around like an idiot until your its your SR.

That said, it's been my impression that in actual play there's not really an issue with the rules as written.

 

[Grimolde]

I think it does yes.

So, a charge and a sprint, allow you to move the exact same distance. I.e., anything up to (for a human) Move 8 x5, minus armour penalty restrictions.

The difference is purely narrative, meaning...

If you declare a charge, you can move up to 40 metres and attack
If you declare a sprint, you can move up to 40 metres and not attack

Basically?

So a sprint takes up all your CAs for the combat round, but a charge, over the same distance, takes up only 1 CA for the combat round? If so, couldn't a character, if human (Move 8 ), with 3 CAs, perform the following:

1 CA: Move 2m then attack?
2 CA: Move another 2m then attack?
3 CA: Charge another 4m to 36m and then attack?

 

[Grimolde]

That said, it's been my impression that in actual play there's not really an issue with the rules as written.

I'll admit to being a newbie when it comes to MRQ2, but I couldn't disagree more with you unfortunately. Movement within combat and all those options ground our game to a halt. It seemed to contradict itself on many levels.

 

[gran_orco]

So a sprint takes up all your CAs for the combat round, but a charge, over the same distance, takes up only 1 CA for the combat round? If so, couldn't a character, if human (Move 8 ), with 3 CAs, perform the following:

1 CA: Move 2m then attack?
2 CA: Move another 2m then attack?
3 CA: Charge another 4m to 36 metres and then attack?

NO, if you charge, you can do only ONE combat action during the round:
Page 90, charging:
Unless the charging creature willingly stops or is forcibly stopped dead, the charge only allows a single Combat Action for the Attacker, their mount (if combat capable) and the Defender during that round

 

[Grimolde]

So a sprint takes up all your CAs for the combat round, but a charge, over the same distance, takes up only 1 CA for the combat round? If so, couldn't a character, if human (Move 8 ), with 3 CAs, perform the following:

1 CA: Move 2m then attack?
2 CA: Move another 2m then attack?
3 CA: Charge another 4m to 36 metres and then attack?

NO, if you charge, you can do only ONE combat action during the round:
Page 90, charging:
Unless the charging creature willingly stops or is forcibly stopped dead, the charge only allows a single Combat Action for the Attacker, their mount (if combat capable) and the Defender during that round

Thanks.

Reason I asked is because this rule:

Charge page 84
By spending 1 CA, if enough space, the Adventurer may charge into close combat, combining the movement with an attack

Makes it sound like it only costs 1 CA.

 

[Loz]

Charge page 84
By spending 1 CA, if enough space, the Adventurer may charge into close combat, combining the movement with an attack Charge

I can see where you're coming from, but you do have combine this with the charge rules Granorco refers to. Your charge is going to consume all but one of your CA, that CA being used to concentrate on the charge and execute the attack.

So, on my SR at the start of a new round I say - "I'm charging that great troll with my spear".

You, as GM, say, "Okay Loz. You have 3 CA yes? (Loz nods). Thought so. Right, the distance between you and the troll is 25 metres - you can move 31 at a sprint, so you've certainly got enough distance and can complete the charge by the time we get to your third CA - that's when you'll hit, so, for the next two CA you're busy running and screaming with your spear levelled. I'll come back to you when we get to your third CA turn."

It really shouldn't be any more complicated than that.

 

[Grimolde]

Charge page 84
By spending 1 CA, if enough space, the Adventurer may charge into close combat, combining the movement with an attack Charge

I can see where you're coming from, but you do have combine this with the charge rules Granorco refers to. Your charge is going to consume all but one of your CA, that CA being used to concentrate on the charge and execute the attack.

So, on my SR at the start of a new round I say - "I'm charging that great troll with my spear".

You, as GM, say, "Okay Loz. You have 3 CA yes? (Loz nods). Thought so. Right, the distance between you and the troll is 25 metres - you can move 31 at a sprint, so you've certainly got enough distance and can complete the charge by the time we get to your third CA - that's when you'll hit, so, for the next two CA you're busy running and screaming with your spear levelled. I'll come back to you when we get to your third CA turn."

It really shouldn't be any more complicated than that.

Yup. The penny dropped as they say.

Unless there's anything else that rears its ugly head, I am about ready to run my second mock combat very soon. After that, they're off to the misty Isle known as Harn

 

[Loz]

Yup. The penny dropped as they say.

Excellent! Good luck with your next mock combat.

I think if I can give you any advice - and its always easier said than done - is try to under, rather than over, think the rules. Pete and I always talk about 'common sense' where RQ is concerned and this is sometimes taken as being 'gee, they couldn't be arsed to think the rules through properly. Why should the GM do all the work that the designers should've done?' But the fact is, we have thought all this through, and playtested it extensively. The combat rules were in playtest for a good two years before we incorporated them into the RQII rules and we've tried out all these scenarios before.

I think the problem sometimes lies in having come from a system that has explicit rules governing movement and action, taking them as individual, rather than fluid, decisions. This isn't to to say that such rules systems are bad; far from it. But it does mean that really, all you need to do is let your head, rather than rules, guide the resolution. The rules will, in probably 90% of the circumstances, support how you want to resolve what's happening. In the other 10% its a question of thinking simply, and clearly, about what is logically possible in real life. Its actually not that difficult; its all a question of letting your intuition and the flow of the game take active control rather than worrying over whether there's a single, specific rule to cover each and every eventuality.

 

[Grimolde]

Good advice, I'll take it on board

Thanks again