Movement Issues

[Grimolde]

Right so, Bert the Barbarian opts to charge Alf the Archer. Both have 3 CAs.

The charge is a straight line to the target, the distance; 30 metres.

Bert begins charging.

How do you work out when Alf can loose an arrow, and for the sake of the example, we'll say he can loose an arrow on each CA.

Would you divide the 30 metre distance by 3 (for Alf's CAs?)

Thus Alf could get a shot off on 10 and 20 metres. He hasn't time to let one fly at 30 metres. Upon which the charge hits.

EDIT: Of course the issue is made more complex if for example, there was a 3rd combatant standing 2 metres aside of the target. What's he do? He's not going to just stand there.

 

[Deleriad]

Right so, Bert the Barbarian opts to charge Alf the Archer. Both have 3 CAs.

The charge is a straight line to the target, the distance; 30 metres.

Bert begins charging.

How do you work out when Alf can loose an arrow, and for the sake of the example, we'll say he can loose an arrow on each CA.

Would you divide the 30 metre distance by 3 (for Alf's CAs?)

Thus Alf could get a shot off on 10 and 20 metres. He hasn't time to let one fly at 30 metres. Upon which the charge hits.

What I would say is this. What's Bert's movement rate when sprinting? If it's around 40m I would basically say that the charge impact happens at the end of the round and he's charging for the whole round and the charge uses up all his CAs.

Don't simplify Alf's actions or it looks wrong. So Alf has 3 CAs (call him SR15), a bow ready but not loaded and spots Alf charging in his direction.

Alf CA 1: Load bow
Alf CA 2. Fire bow.
Alf CA 3. Now he's got a choice. Run away, evade or brace his bow... (as Bert is close I would make his run away action an Athletics roll opposed by Bert's Athletics; if he doesn't win the test then he's left it too late and Bert runs him down with the charge and he has no CAs left.)

Now, if you were to say that Bert's charge "happens on his last CA" something very weird happens. Say dumb, clumsy Bert is charging (2 CAs) then Bert's charge hits just after Alf's second CA. However if smart, nimble Bert (3 CAs) charges it would happen after Alf's 3rd CA. So Alf gets more time to react against smart Bert.

Basically remember that this is meant to be fluid and if you try to micromanage it you just spin your head around. Also because characters have differing numbers of CAs they don't work very well as a timing mechanism for movement.

This is my rule of thumb when a player says they want to charge someone.
Is the distance less than or equal to MV (8m)? If so it happens as a single CA on their SR.
Is it more than a single MV but less than twice? Make an Athletics roll. If successful it happens on this CA, if not, it happens on the next CA.
Is it more than twice MV (but within limit)? It happens at the end of the round when everything else is done. Target can save a CA to deal with it.

 

[Grimolde]

That looks workable

Thank you

 

[Grimolde]

Though it may throw up problems if a charger only had 1 CA

Thinking about it, it just feels odd that under the RAW, one character with 6 CAs has a lot more to lose when charging, than say another character with only 2 CAs.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Though it may throw up problems if a charger only had 1 CA

Thinking about it, it just feels odd that under the RAW, one character with 6 CAs has a lot more to lose when charging, than say another character with only 2 CAs.

Also, what if you want to charge half way through the round? Do you have to make the call in your first CA? What if you've already parried, can you still charge even though you don't have all your CAs left? I agree that it isn't ideal.

 

[PhilHibbs]

How about this.

In order to sprint or charge, you must use more than one CA, and in each CA you move your Movement Rate. Therefore a human can only charge someone who is more than 8m away, and cannot charge someone in one round who is more than 16m away if they only have 2 CAs left in that round. Charge actions can be split across from one round to the next, and the upper limit for sprinting within one round (5 x Move Rate - Armour Penalty) still applies.

The attack at the end of a charge is resolved in the final CA in which the character arrives, and all CAs subsequent to that are lost. If he makes contact with the target (i.e. the target does not Evade), then the target also loses all subsequent CAs in the round.

 

[Grimolde]

Though it may throw up problems if a charger only had 1 CA

Thinking about it, it just feels odd that under the RAW, one character with 6 CAs has a lot more to lose when charging, than say another character with only 2 CAs.

Also, what if you want to charge half way through the round? Do you have to make the call in your first CA? What if you've already parried, can you still charge even though you don't have all your CAs left? I agree that it isn't ideal.

You have to begin your charge on the first phase of your SR. It's in that unofficial/official piece that was posted in this thread. It takes up 'all' your CAs bar 1.

 

[Grimolde]

How about this.

In order to sprint or charge, you must use more than one CA, and in each CA you move your Movement Rate. Therefore a human can only charge someone who is more than 8m away, and cannot charge someone in one round who is more than 16m away if they only have 2 CAs left in that round. Charge actions can be split across from one round to the next, and the upper limit for sprinting within one round (5 x Move Rate - Armour Penalty) still applies.

The attack at the end of a charge is resolved in the final CA in which the character arrives, and all CAs subsequent to that are lost. If he makes contact with the target (i.e. the target does not Evade), then the target also loses all subsequent CAs in the round.

I'm not sure because I'm still trying to digest the move/charge rules myself. I'm seriously considering houseruling it all.

You can move up to your Move every CA.
If you only have 1 CA, I guess you're a slow poke, if you have 6 CAs, you're in luck.

Maximum distance you can charge is around 40 metres.
If you haven't hit anything by then, you have to ask yourself if you're on the right battlefield. Incidentally 40 metres is Move 8 x5, the same as a sprint.

You must move at least 4m to charge.
Build up momentum

Something like that

 

[johnmarron]

I'm not sure because I'm still trying to digest the move/charge rules myself. I'm seriously considering houseruling it all.

You can move up to your Move every CA.
If you only have 1 CA, I guess you're a slow poke, if you have 6 CAs, you're in luck.

Maximum distance you can charge is around 40 metres.
If you haven't hit anything by then, you have to ask yourself if you're on the right battlefield. Incidentally 40 metres is Move 8 x5, the same as a sprint.

You must move at least 4m to charge.
Build up momentum

Something like that

I like the sound of this. I don't know if its realistic in terms of distance vs time in a combat round, but I'm more interested in easier and smoother play than strict realism, so its not a big issue for me.

BTW - do you mean that you can move your movement rate in addition to another action on each CA (my assumption) or that if you choose to move on a CA, that's all you get to do?

I think I'll try this out in my RQ/Tribe 8 game.

John

 

[Dan True]

You can move up to your Move every CA.
If you only have 1 CA, I guess you're a slow poke, if you have 6 CAs, you're in luck.

So... An elf with 4 CAs can move 32 metres in a 5 second period while walking? Or do you mean if you commit the CA and do nothing else, i.e. sprinting/charging?

- Dan

 

[Grimolde]

I'm not sure because I'm still trying to digest the move/charge rules myself. I'm seriously considering houseruling it all.

You can move up to your Move every CA.
If you only have 1 CA, I guess you're a slow poke, if you have 6 CAs, you're in luck.

Maximum distance you can charge is around 40 metres.
If you haven't hit anything by then, you have to ask yourself if you're on the right battlefield. Incidentally 40 metres is Move 8 x5, the same as a sprint.

You must move at least 4m to charge.
Build up momentum

Something like that

I like the sound of this. I don't know if its realistic in terms of distance vs time in a combat round, but I'm more interested in easier and smoother play than strict realism, so its not a big issue for me.

BTW - do you mean that you can move your movement rate in addition to another action on each CA (my assumption) or that if you choose to move on a CA, that's all you get to do?

I think I'll try this out in my RQ/Tribe 8 game.

John

Haven't really given it that much thought to be totally honest with you. But now you mention it, I'd rule that if you decided to charge, be it 4 metres, 8, 12, 16, or whatever, that's all you can do. I envison a charge to be something you'd really have to focus on. About the only thing you could do extra per CA, is perform a skill check to avoid tripping/slipping (these would be reactive and not take up a CA) or something. That's if you are charging.

Else it's as written in the book. I.e., you can move and act in a CA.

This actually got me to thinking, is raising the Damage modifier by 1 step enough? I'm not so sure

 

[johnmarron]

You can move up to your Move every CA.
If you only have 1 CA, I guess you're a slow poke, if you have 6 CAs, you're in luck.

So... An elf with 4 CAs can move 32 metres in a 5 second period while walking? Or do you mean if you commit the CA and do nothing else, i.e. sprinting/charging?

- Dan

Hmm, that is a bit fast (wikipedia tells me that average human walking speed is about 4 km/hr, and the elf is moving about 23 km/hr). What if you make it half your move per CA if walking, and your move per CA if sprinting (still slower sprint than the rules now, I know)?

That way, a human with 2 CA is walking a little less than 6 km/hr, and sprinting at 12 km/hr.

John

 

[Grimolde]

Back to the drawing board

 

[Grimolde]

Page 84
By spending one CA a character can do the following on his turn

Move: If unengaged, the Adventurer may move his full movement rate.

Is this right? For some reason I thought it was you could move up to your Move rate '8', per round. This is saying per CA

 

[Dan True]

Back to the drawing board

It should be as it is now (at least from my perspective). A person can move on his own SR (without spending a CA on it), to a maximum of 8 metres (roughly 5 km/hour) per round. Or spend his whole turn sprinting (you can allow a person to start sprinting in the middle of a turn, but then his sprint action should end on the similar CA on the turn after).

The reason you probably should not allow a person to sprints for 2 CA and then stop and act normally, is that it is not realistic (if you give heck about realism, go right ahead). Before a person can attain high enough speed to allow for that, he would have to speed up for more than 2 CA. Remember that the sprinting action covers both accelerating, running and deaccelerating again.

At least that's what I think. I believe Loz and Deleriad's solutions have been very helpful.

- Dan

 

[Grimolde]

Though technically, a character with say, 6 CAs, can move faster than someone sprinting?

No, because the character can only move his movement each round, unless sprinting. So say a character with 6 CA, has 8 Movement. He can do either of these:

CA 1: Move 8 metres
CA 2-6: Do something else

As long as he doesn't move more than 8 metres per combat round, he can spread the 8 metres out over as many CAs as he like.

- Dan

Yet on page 84 it states if unengaged you can spend 1CA and move up to your Move rate. I'm assuming therefore you can, in one combat round:

CA 1 Move 8
CA 2 Move 8
CA 3 Move 8

And so on

 

[sdavies2720]

We've been using poker chips, with players getting one chip per meter of movement for their characters.

If the character is moving while acting: One poker chip = 1 meter of movement, but the movement has to come before the action. E.g. if you are using the CA to attack, you can move 1 meter per chip before attacking, but you cannot move after attacking.

If the character is just moving:
Move at Jog: 1 or 2 meters per chip, cannot do anything else with this CA, but can use any other CA without penalty.

Move at Run: up to 3 meters per chip, any other CA used before your next initiative turn is at -20%. E.g. if you want to parry after Running, you would parry at -20%.

Move at Sprint: up to 5 meters per chip, no other CAs can be used until your next initiative turn. E.g. if you were attacked after Sprinting, you could not defend yourself until your next initiative turn.

I haven't yet codified how to handle charges.

 

[Deleriad]

Though technically, a character with say, 6 CAs, can move faster than someone sprinting?

No, because the character can only move his movement each round, unless sprinting. So say a character with 6 CA, has 8 Movement. He can do either of these:

CA 1: Move 8 metres
CA 2-6: Do something else

As long as he doesn't move more than 8 metres per combat round, he can spread the 8 metres out over as many CAs as he like.

- Dan

Yet on page 84 it states if unengaged you can spend 1CA and move up to your Move rate. I'm assuming therefore you can, in one combat round:

CA 1 Move 8
CA 2 Move 8
CA 3 Move 8

And so on

There is somewhere either errata or a thread answer where the authors explain that movement per CA is a typo. It is meant to be movement per Combat Round.

The way it is meant to be is something like this. Say you have a movement rate of 8m, an Armour Penalty of -4 and 3 Combat Actions. This means that your maximum movement in round 36m. Imagine then that you have 36 poker chips: 8 of them (equal to your move) are white and the rest (28) are red. You can freely spend the white ones during CAs without interfering with the actions. If you want to move further though you need to spend red ones and they require you to devote one or more CAs to the action. How exactly many you can spend in a single CA is a matter of circumstance.

In actual play without a grid you don't actually need this level of tracking. A player might say, "Edric wants to run over to the tower to get in some cover." The GM might say, "it's about 20m away. How many CAs do you have left." Edric's player says "1." GM considers and says "If you make an athletics test you get there this CA otherwise you only make it 2/3rds of the way."

My understanding is that the movement system really isn't any more complicated than that. There's no expectation that you'll count every metre.

 

[Grimolde]

I see what you are saying, but then it would say:

The following are activities a character can attempt by spending one Combat Round during their turn.

Move: If unengaged, the Adventurer may move his full movement rate.

Which is fine, but what about all the other options on the list? It's saying you can spend one CA to do any of the following on your turn, but you can (usually) spend more than one CA per combat round.

It doesn't make sense to me

 

[DamonJynx]

Very interesting thread.

My group likes using mini's and a battlemat scaled at 1 sq = 1metre.

We have been playing, I won't say incorrectly, rather under a misinterpretation, of the charging rules - I was allowing players to charge and attack in 1 CA if it was within their movement rate. I will be re-visiting the movement etc when we next we play now that all this has been explained.

After reading the thread, I think the way Loz explained it makes perfect sense and I personally will follow that line of thought.

Regarding the amount of extrapolation (I love that word) required to cover various situations, I really like that Loz and Pete have put the final decision in the GM's hands and we don't have a ponderous, 360pg book that tries to cover every situation. After only 8 sessions, it's got to the point that I rarely refer to the rules at all, as it is all pretty much based on opposed rolls and common sense (as stated above, some of how we play isn't exactly right, but it works for us).

There will always be 'disagreements' re interpretations, but at the end of the day the rules are there to provide a consistent framework and guide as to what is allowable and how to resolve the majority of common situations, not a rigid and codified rule-set.

Think of the rules as being written by the agents of Chaos, not Law (if you don't know what I mean read the Eternal Champion series by Michael Moorcock).