More on Divine Magic

[RMS]

Which, IMO, upset the balance. Divine magic was always the ultimate, the head honcho, the holy hand grenade. Giving people relative freedom to wander the world flinging about reusable Divine magic willy-nilly (when their doing so may not be to the direct benefit of the Cult) debased that quite a bit.

I never saw that as a big problem. Take away 50% of all the stuff they get (50% of income). If you practise that rule all the way, being an acolyte soon shows its downside too. Priests can practically only go on adventures when directed so by the cult, which makes them somewhat unplayable. It's more like a retirement possition.

SGL.

You guys certainly played different games than we did. We had parties full of rune priests and rune lords doing all kinds of adventures. It was always cult related, but then it's not really hard for most PC favored cults to come up with good reasons for their priests to be wandering the world, and certainly not an issue for rune lords.

One of the things I immediately dislike about the new system is how it limits divine magic. It does bring initiates up a bit*, but really penalizes priests, acolytes, and rune lords. It was common before to have a priest or rune lord with 30, 40, or even 50+ points of divine magic available. That's a lot of options and some powerful ones that can't be done with the new system, unless there's something I'm missing. I also don't like the high chance of divine magic failing now. I'd rather force the person to make the appropriate lore spell to correctly do the ritual to receive the spell (and hence needing a few tries to get it right...and perhaps multiple payouts to the temple), and then allow the spell to automatically go off in time of need, like before.

* I'd note that I've never met anyone who didn't enable initiates to relearn their divine magic in some way, so the rules have brought them up more than how the game was actually played in my experience.

 

[soltakss]

You guys certainly played different games than we did. We had parties full of rune priests and rune lords doing all kinds of adventures. It was always cult related, but then it's not really hard for most PC favored cults to come up with good reasons for their priests to be wandering the world, and certainly not an issue for rune lords.

Agreed 100%. If you are in an adventurous cult, such as Orlanth Adventurous then you can justify any chaos bash, troll bash, elf bash etc as a cult mission. Storm Bullers can either be killing chaos or looking for chaos or helping other people in the hope of finding chaos. Issaries cultists can be on the lookout for trading opportunities, helping Lightbringers or trading and so on.

We used to have a limit of 1 adventuring session per season for priests and 2 per season for rune lords, as a rule of thumb. This is in addition to actual cult missions ordered by the temple. Wandering priests/rune lords would have more, of course.

One of the things I immediately dislike about the new system is how it limits divine magic. It does bring initiates up a bit*, but really penalizes priests, acolytes, and rune lords. It was common before to have a priest or rune lord with 30, 40, or even 50+ points of divine magic available. That's a lot of options and some powerful ones that can't be done with the new system, unless there's something I'm missing. I also don't like the high chance of divine magic failing now. I'd rather force the person to make the appropriate lore spell to correctly do the ritual to receive the spell (and hence needing a few tries to get it right...and perhaps multiple payouts to the temple), and then allow the spell to automatically go off in time of need, like before.

* I'd note that I've never met anyone who didn't enable initiates to relearn their divine magic in some way, so the rules have brought them up more than how the game was actually played in my experience.

Well, we never allowed initiates reusable divine magic - they had to wait until they became acolytes, priests or rune lords (in RQ3), unless they had a specific gift or gained the spell on a HeroQuest. It never stopped us scrificing for spells whenever we got a POW gain roll, though. We just built up spells to 10 points so we could qualify for priest/acolyte status. We also cast them sometimes (Shock! Horror!)

But, as for RQM, yes they have seriously downgraded Divine Magic.

The concept of Dedicated POW seems to limit the number of points of divine magic you can have, unless I have misunderstood the rules. In past games, 50 points of divine magic was not uncommon. In our current RQ3-ish game, a shaman has 10 points of Divine Magic and has only been a shaman for a couple of seasons. That's the kind of game I like, not ones where players are scrabbling around for a couple of points here and there.

Having a cast chance for Divine Magic makes it virtually useless for starting initiates who have to increase their Lore (Specific Theology) to 50% to even make it worthwhile trying to get the spell or trying to cast it. If I belonged to a Orlanth Adventurous, say, then I wouldn't rely on being able to cast Fly(Telekinesis) to stop falling to my death if I had a 50% chance of failing.

It seems almost an official view that Rune Magic is the be all and end all of magic and that other systems, such as Divine Magic or Sorcery, are relatively minor. That is definitely hard to accept from a Gloranthan point of view, where Divine Magic has always been more important than Sorcery and Spirit Magic. Now, we also have Shamanism, yet to be detailed, which will add another "unimportant" magic system.

It seems odd that a game that definitely encourages high power levels (Legendary Abilities/Legendary Heroes) is discouraging powerful runepriests and runelords.

I don't really want to see many more rules that are fixed later on or are explained away as "Glorantha is different".

 

[WildHealer]

I don't really want to see many more rules that are fixed later on or are explained away as "Glorantha is different".

Sadly I think this may be just one more example of the D&D influence on MRQ. Divine Magic appears to have been relegated to a position of "first among equals" with Rune Magic and Sorcery, rather than the qualitatively different - and far superior - successor to Battle / Spirit Magic which it used to be in previous editions. It's almost as though the equation is:

Divine Magic = magic used by Cleric-y types
Rune Magic & Sorcery = magic used by Wizard-y types
...and there ain't no magic used by everyone

Which is all fine if you're a.) starting a new campaign and b.) not playing in Glorantha. If you're trying to move over from RQ2 or 3 and playing an established game with one or more Rune Priests, boy are they gonna be pissed off when they get downgraded!

Sadly, Simon, I await the inevitable explanation that Glorantha is indeed different and it'll all be addressed in some future supplement... Presumably not Legendary Heroes, Magic of Glorantha, or Cults of Glorantha though... :?

Wild Healer

 

[soltakss]

The concept of Dedicated POW seems to limit the number of points of divine magic you can have, unless I have misunderstood the rules.

I've just looked at the Companion SRD and it says:

Limitations
A character may not store a combined Magnitude of Divine Magic spells that would reduce his POW to less than 1.

So, there it is in black and white.

If I have a POW 15 priest then I can have at most 14 combined Magnitude (points) of Divine Magic. I will be left with POW 1 (which is not that serious any more, with Resists being skill based) and will not be able to get more Divine Magic or absorb runes until I get a POW increase.

Now, some might say this is the same as RQ3 where a POW 15 priest could sacrifice for 14 points of divine magic and end up with POW 1. But, he gives his POW away, it isn't dedicated to, or reserved for, spells. In RQ3 POW gain rolls drove divine magic as you eventually got the POW back. Also, a Priest could get 50 points of divine magic as the POW is spent.

In RQM, the POW is simply dedicated and comes back afterwards, so it depends on what your current POW is.

I really don't see how you can get powerful priests using Divine Magic.

 

[Trifletraxor]

You guys certainly played different games than we did. We had parties full of rune priests and rune lords doing all kinds of adventures. It was always cult related, but then it's not really hard for most PC favored cults to come up with good reasons for their priests to be wandering the world, and certainly not an issue for rune lords.

Agreed 100%. If you are in an adventurous cult, such as Orlanth Adventurous then you can justify any chaos bash, troll bash, elf bash etc as a cult mission. Storm Bullers can either be killing chaos or looking for chaos or helping other people in the hope of finding chaos. Issaries cultists can be on the lookout for trading opportunities, helping Lightbringers or trading and so on.

Well, we did play with priests too, but more rarely, as I after a while denied the PCs to take years of to train, and they had to reach priest status through adventuring. In that way, acolyte status was usually always the first stepping stone.

What I was responding to was Gbaji saying the acolyte status upset the balance in RQ3. My main point was that it only did so when you ignored the requirements. The way I play it, an acolyte must give 50% of his income to the cult. If you're the local priest however, it's easier to keep the stash yourself.

SGL.

 

[RMS]

We used to have a limit of 1 adventuring session per season for priests and 2 per season for rune lords, as a rule of thumb. This is in addition to actual cult missions ordered by the temple. Wandering priests/rune lords would have more, of course.

For my games, most adventures are spaced out a season or two to begin with, so this would never be an issue. I assume most PCs aren't out there constantly.

* I'd note that I've never met anyone who didn't enable initiates to relearn their divine magic in some way, so the rules have brought them up more than how the game was actually played in my experience.

Well, we never allowed initiates reusable divine magic - they had to wait until they became acolytes, priests or rune lords (in RQ3), unless they had a specific gift or gained the spell on a HeroQuest.

A short tangent: we actually did this because we thought it made the most sense. Before allowing initiates to regain divine magic they had a tendancy to horde it to meet the divine magic limitations to move up in the cult. The result was those that used their god's powers and therefore acted the most like their god were behind in their cult development to those who horded power and therefore weren't acting as much in the manner of their god. We had initiates relearning spells only on the high holy day (once a year) most of the time. However, in the last few years I even removed that artificial construct and let initiates just relearn divine magic when they could with appropriate prayer and payment, and a successful ceremony roll. This is handled through roleplay now. An initiate (who has another full time job somewhere presumably) has a lot harder time begging several days off work to go be lazy and just pray at the temple, especially if their for nonuseful spells. IF it's a spell to help the plowing or the crops, etc. that would be one thing, but something like a Lightning or Shield is kind useless to your typical Orlanthi Farmer/Initiate!

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

Which, IMO, upset the balance. Divine magic was always the ultimate, the head honcho, the holy hand grenade. Giving people relative freedom to wander the world flinging about reusable Divine magic willy-nilly (when their doing so may not be to the direct benefit of the Cult) debased that quite a bit.

I never saw that as a big problem. Take away 50% of all the stuff they get (50% of income). If you practise that rule all the way, being an acolyte soon shows its downside too. Priests can practically only go on adventures when directed so by the cult, which makes them somewhat unplayable. It's more like a retirement possition.

SGL.

You guys certainly played different games than we did. We had parties full of rune priests and rune lords doing all kinds of adventures. It was always cult related, but then it's not really hard for most PC favored cults to come up with good reasons for their priests to be wandering the world, and certainly not an issue for rune lords.

That's a fair point, and you're right.

Ah, we were young...

 

[soltakss]

Sadly I think this may be just one more example of the D&D influence on MRQ. Divine Magic appears to have been relegated to a position of "first among equals" with Rune Magic and Sorcery, rather than the qualitatively different - and far superior - successor to Battle / Spirit Magic which it used to be in previous editions.

"First among equals"? I wish!

Divine Magic is definitely, as written, worse than either Rune Magic or Sorcery. "Third among equals" is more like it.

Which is all fine if you're a.) starting a new campaign and b.) not playing in Glorantha. If you're trying to move over from RQ2 or 3 and playing an established game with one or more Rune Priests, boy are they gonna be pissed off when they get downgraded!

Now, this is something that gamers and game designers treat very differently.

Gamers: I play RQ2/RQ3 and have some characters I'd like to convert, but it's going to change the makeup of the characters.

Game Designers: Don't bother about all that old rubbish, start afresh. Start a new character in a new campaign.

Gamers: But, I like my old character and campaign, I like how Glorantha works.

Game Designers: Forget the old stuff and move on. Don't be stuck in the past. This is a new game with a new setting, learn to live with it.

Gamers: But ...

Game Designers: No buts, that's how it is and that's how it's going to be ...

Sadly, Simon, I await the inevitable explanation that Glorantha is indeed different and it'll all be addressed in some future supplement... Presumably not Legendary Heroes, Magic of Glorantha, or Cults of Glorantha though... :?

But, how many supplements will we need before the things in those books get fixed? (Assuming of course, that they also have problems)

 

[simonh]

Here again, we may be jumping to conclusions because we don't have all the pieces of the puzzle.

It's true that the new rules drasticaly reduce the amount of rune magic a priest can have 'in memory', to the point where they appear to be severely limited, but there may be ways roudn this. One way would be to put rune magic into enchantments. If the enchantment rules allow this, and it's not too expensive in POW, then it could be a viable way to expand the power of priests beyond what a first reading of the rules would suggest.

Are the rules for allied spirits/companions out yet? Can rune priests/lords put some of their divine magic in them? Ok you could do that in previous RQ editions too so it would only be maintaining parity, rather then compensating from the aforesaid limitation, but it would still help mitigate the severity of the apparent limitation.

I must admit I'm getting a little tired of continualy holding out hope that the apparent limitations and in the rules will be worked around or compensated for later, it's happening a lot and there are so many cases when the rules do appear to realy cramp the style of the game that I'm wondering if all of them realy will be worked around somehow, but it's still possible.

I don't know though. maybe the're throwing out the old ways of scaling up characters, and bringing in new ones. Perhaps Legendary Abilities that let you learn more divine magic. At least that would be one way to open up the game to decently capable, even actualy powerful characters without actualy directly modding the rules.

 

[RosenMcStern]

One way would be to put rune magic into enchantments. If the enchantment rules allow this, and it's not too expensive in POW, then it could be a viable way to expand the power of priests beyond what a first reading of the rules would suggest.

Exactly. A matrix (Spellcharge, sorry ) for Shield 4 usable only to cult members costs 4 POW overall, with no risk of spending the POW uselessly unless you fumble. In RQ3 the cost was 9 POW (4 for the spell, which was lost, 4 for the enchantment and 1 for the user condition), with a substantial chance of wasting the POW with no effect. And initiates can make magic items, too, if they have the Enchant skill. I think we'll see much more cult magic items in MRQ with these new rules, whereas in RQ3 priests tended to avoid making magic items because they needed the POW to acquire new Divine Magic. And the overall effect will be positive, methinks.

 

[simonh]

Exactly. A matrix (Spellcharge, sorry ) for Shield 4 usable only to cult members costs 4 POW overall, with no risk of spending the POW uselessly unless you fumble. In RQ3 the cost was 9 POW.

This is realy good. I haven't seen the enchanting rules yet, and know that tis option was prohibitively expensive in RQ3 hence my 'if it's not too expensive' qualifier. This effectively raises divine magic back up to it's former usefullness. Ok yes you now have to go through an extra step to create the enchantment and develop that skill, but in return you get much more versatile magic as it can be loaned out or given as gifts, so it's just a case of pros and cons.

BTW, how are magic items like this recharged?

 

[Vadrus]

Just got the Second Age sourcebook and noticed it has a tiny bit of crunch included, namely the rules for Iron.

Each Enc of Iron carried reduces the persons effective POW by one only with regard to their maximum MP and rate of regenerating MP.

There is no mention of Enchanting Iron to reduce or eliminate this penalty.

Does this mean that if a Runelord with POW 15 knows 14 points of Divine Magic (and therefore has 1 MP left), picks up his Iron Sword promptly loses his last MP and passes out?

Actually on a related point, what does happen when someone reaches 0 MP? I can't see any mention of it in the core or companion, am I going blind?


Vadrus

 

[simonh]

Each Enc of Iron carried reduces the persons effective POW by one only with regard to their maximum MP and rate of regenerating MP.

Does it confer any resistence to magic? In the past iron simply damped down magic, giving you an enhanced chance to resist it, and a reduced chance to cast you're own magic (-5% per ENC on all magic, incoming or outgoing).

From what you've said, it sound like it now only penalises the wearer. Is that realy true?

 

[Mugen]

BTW, how are magic items like this recharged?

According to the Companion SRD, p28 :

Divine Spells: A Divine Spell placed into an item is lost from the enchanter’s memory as a result (as if it were cast).  It will also only work once, then the spell is expended (though it is not necessary to spend a Magic Point to activate such an enchantment).  However, it can be ‘recharged’ by a wielder praying in an appropriate temple for the appropriate amount of time.

the "appropriate amount of time" being 1 day per Magnitude if I understand the Divine Magic chapter well.

 

[RosenMcStern]

According to the Companion SRD, p28 :

Divine Spells: A Divine Spell placed into an item is lost from the enchanter’s memory as a result (as if it were cast). It will also only work once, then the spell is expended (though it is not necessary to spend a Magic Point to activate such an enchantment). However, it can be ‘recharged’ by a wielder praying in an appropriate temple for the appropriate amount of time.

the "appropriate amount of time" being 1 day per Magnitude if I understand the Divine Magic chapter well.

As in RQ3. I suppose a Consecrated area would do, too. These Enchantment rules are a Powerplayer's dream, mates.

 

[soltakss]

These Enchantment rules are a Powerplayer's dream, mates.

Yes, I like them

 

[Vadrus]

Each Enc of Iron carried reduces the persons effective POW by one only with regard to their maximum MP and rate of regenerating MP.

Does it confer any resistence to magic? In the past iron simply damped down magic, giving you an enhanced chance to resist it, and a reduced chance to cast you're own magic (-5% per ENC on all magic, incoming or outgoing).

From what you've said, it sound like it now only penalises the wearer. Is that realy true?

Iron's penalty is it reduces your effective POW for MP, it's bonus is double damage against Trolls and Elves and the ability to hurt spirits. So if you're just fighting humans leave you Iron at home, it's more a hindrance than anything now.

It has no effect on magic cast against you from the snippet of information given in the book.

More rules to come in the Players Book?


Vadrus

 

[Rurik]

I seem to find myself defending MRQ Divine Magic on this thread - which is odd, as I really don't like the changes to it (see the wiki for my houserule).

Divine Magic has one BIG advantage over other types in MRQ - it is all based ONE skill. All of your Divine spellcasting goes up by increasing your cults Theology skill (assuming you are only getting divine magic from one cult).

With Rune Magic you have to increase each Runecasting skill separately, and with Sorcery each spell is a separate skill AND you have all the Manipulation Skills as well.

Couple this with the way experience is handled compared to previous editions and Divine Magic is the easiest to learn.

In RQ3 if a Sorcerer combined three spells and manipulated the magnitude, range, and duration he would get 6 experience checks. Now he has to decide how to split his 3-4 experience rolls per session. Don't forget about Persistence when choosing your skills to improve (you can, however, forget about ever increasing any combat skills if you are trying to become a good sorcerer). Compare this to a Divine Magic user. You can increase Theology and Persistence and still have experience left over for other skills, such as Weapons or Enchanting.

So while Divine Magic no longer has a base 100% chance to succeed as in earlier editions, now that all magic is skill based it is still easiest to master.

 

[simonh]

It has no effect on magic cast against you from the snippet of information given in the book.

So Iron weapons can be useful in some situations, but iron armour is a realy, realy bad idea if you have any intention of using or resisting magic.

This is a big change. It actualy makes iron wearers significantly more vulnerable to magic, rather than less vulnerable as in previous editions. Very strange, I wonder what the reasoning is behind this?

 

[simonh]

In RQ3 if a Sorcerer combined three spells and manipulated the magnitude, range, and duration he would get 6 experience checks.

I'm not sure about that. Weren't those skills knowledge skills and so could only be increased through research? Not 100% sure about that. IIRC you could improve spells by experience but not intensity or the other sorcery skills.