More on Divine Magic

[gamesmeister]

Having obviously not seen either the Cults book or Magic in Glorantha book, I don't know if Divine magic is handled differently in a Glorantha-specific environment, but I'm guessing not.

On first glance, my thoughts were: it sucks! Divine Magic was always the pinnacle of magical endeavour in Glorantha (at least for most people), and in the past was only generally available to Rune Lords/Rune Priests i.e. those who are highly favoured by the Gods. Yet besides it being much harder to cast than previous editions, this business of having to reduce POW, albeit temporarily, makes it almost completely incompatible with Rune Magic, and in fact very hard to overcharge due to the lack of MPs available.

I'm guessing Matthew and co wanted to see much more Divine magic than previous versions, hence why they made it more accessible to Initiates. And I'm beginning to think that for Initiates, it is actually a pretty damn good system. Again harking back to previous versions, an Initiate had to permanently sacrifice POW to gain one-use Divine magic, something very few were willing to do given such a high price to pay for a one-shot spell.

The current system however seems very well suited to Initiates because it avoids that permanent high price of POW loss (and the corresponding MP loss that comes with it), but also prevents initiates from storing large amounts of Divine magic (for the reasons mentioned above), which they are not yet entitled to due to their lower position in the cult.

However, as has been mentioned by others, Runemasters need some help with this system. They have been chosen by their Gods as representatives of the God himself (or herself), and must therefore be exempt from the POW storage requirement, which to my mind is crippling. Therefore I'd suggest that a Rune Priest may opt to permanently sacrifice POW, just as in the old days, to gain a spell, rather than temporarily storing it. Unlike the old days though, they don't need to keep their POW above 18, as this has been replaced with the Legendary Ability.

Just my 2L

G

 

[Thalran Korisha]

Seems to make sense, after all why take on the reponsibilities of priesthood when there are no benifits? Oh except that you get to give away more of your money to the cult.

 

[Durand Durand]

Priests are paid by their cults, so I imagine, where they could, they'd get rituals for magic free of cost.

Also, you get to use the temple regalia. Powerful stuff. That nice crown with the 3 Bloodcrystals in it gives you access to a lot of MP. That staff has a whupass Powerboosting Enchantment.

DD

 

[gamesmeister]

Priests are paid by their cults, so I imagine, where they could, they'd get rituals for magic free of cost.

I wouldn't have thought funds would be an issue once you reach Rune status, although I guess that depends on each campaign.

Also, you get to use the temple regalia. Powerful stuff. That nice crown with the 3 Bloodcrystals in it gives you access to a lot of MP. That staff has a whupass Powerboosting Enchantment.

That's great for ceremonial magic back in the temple, and the occasional sacred cult quest that comes up, but for the most part your average priest won't be walking around with all the temple regalia to hand.

Thinking about it, a priest should have the option to do both. i.e. take a temporary spell, or permanently sacrifice for permanent use of the spell, whichever they choose to do. So taking a permanent Shield spell would be very wise, and then take a temporary Breath Water for the attack on the local newtling temple.

I'm curious how Mongoose are going to handle cults that steal divine magic from others, such as Vivamort or Thanatar (from Glorantha). If they can only carry stolen magic up to their POW, it will really weaken them and their raison d'etre. Plus they'll have very little chance of successfully casting stolen spells as they won't have the necessary Theology skills.

G

 

[soltakss]

Well, going back a little bit, RQ3 Thanatar was more powerful than RQ2 Thanatar because RQ3 Thanatari could sacrifice POW and make the stolen spells resuable from Thanatar. When they prayed the spells back, they did so at a Thanatar Temple.

Presumably a similar mechanism could be used for RQM Thanatari where they get their stolen spells and cast them with a Lore (Thanatari Theology). When they cast the spell, however, do they get the POW back? If so, can they use it for different spells? Would you want to unless you got some crappy spell like Flowers?

 

[Rurik]

This is a problem that severely limits the power of Runepriests and Runelords by capping their spells and crippling their MP.

I am toying with the following houserule to fix it: Allow Priests and Lords to make a dedicated Divine Pool by sacrificing permenant POW. This pool would not count as dedicated POW and could be re-filled through prayer as normal. So if you over time sacrifice 3 points of POW you can store up to 3 points of Divine Magic in it. Rune level charachters could still use Dedicated POW like Initiates and Acolytes.

Spells could not be split (A Magnitude 6 spell would have to all be stored in either Dedicated POW or the Divine Pool). Being Excommunicated would cause the Divine Pool to be lost.

This would allow Rune levels to become powerful over time as before. I do not think it would get out of hand because POW is harder to increase than in RQ 2/3

 

[Trifletraxor]

What about the initiates? Can they now, if they now they'll soon gonna have a major battle, go and get f.ex. a Shield 10? As the POW comes back, powerfull divine magic seems very accessible to initiates now.

SGL.

 

[gamesmeister]

What about the initiates? Can they now, if they now they'll soon gonna have a major battle, go and get f.ex. a Shield 10? As the POW comes back, powerfull divine magic seems very accessible to initiates now.

SGL.

Well, technically yes, but....

It would take them 10 days of praying, cost 25,000 silvers, and certainly in any campaign I was running would only be allowed for a major cult outing. Temples don't give these spells out without good reason.

The initiate would also be going into battle with very few MPs should they be needed.

G

 

[Trifletraxor]

Well, technically yes, but....

It would take them 10 days of praying, cost 25,000 silvers, and certainly in any campaign I was running would only be allowed for a major cult outing. Temples don't give these spells out without good reason.

The initiate would also be going into battle with very few MPs should they be needed.

G

With a Shield 10, who needs magic points?

But the money could be an issue, at least if a silver in MRQ equals a pennie in RQ3.

SGL.

 

[CharlieMonster]

What about the initiates? Can they now, if they now they'll soon gonna have a major battle, go and get f.ex. a Shield 10? As the POW comes back, powerfull divine magic seems very accessible to initiates now.

Given the relative ease of Spell-Charged item production, I would anticipate most cults would loan such items to initiates undertaking major cult endeavours. This would be relatively low-risk as a) a Divine Spell item is a one-shot until recharging at a temple, and b) if you don't give it back, they will hunt you down and excommunicate your ass.

Incidentally I get the impression, this is what the 'Gooseys are aiming at in the new system: lots of minor religious artefacts, a bit like the middle ages when relic production was something of a growth industry.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

Hold on, Initiates could get Divine Magic in both RQ2 and RQ3 (although it was strictly one-use). RQ2, page 55, first column, point 2 ("Limited Use of Rune Magic"), for instance. Am I missing something in this argument?

In fact, it was the introduction of the Acolyte rank in RQ3 (which has been retained in MRQ), giving all of the power of a Priest at a significantly lower cost that really upset the applecart.

The real problem this time round is that there doesn't seem to be any benefit, so far as Divine Magic is concerned, to being a Rune Lord or Rune Priest. Reusable spells used to be a big attraction. But then I suspect that we haven't seen the full rules for Rune Lords and Priests yet...

 

[Trifletraxor]

Hold on, Initiates could get Divine Magic in both RQ2 and RQ3 (although it was strictly one-use). RQ2, page 55, first column, point 2 ("Limited Use of Rune Magic"), for instance. Am I missing something in this argument?

What do you mean? If a RQ3 initiate sacrificed for a Shield 10, he lost then permanent POW and crippled his character!

In fact, it was the introduction of the Acolyte rank in RQ3 (which has been retained in MRQ), giving all of the power of a Priest at a significantly lower cost that really upset the applecart.

And it was also this that let reusable divine magic user join mixed adventure-groups adventuring.

SGL.

 

[Exubae]

But then I suspect that we haven't seen the full rules for Rune Lords and Priests yet...

Not meaning to criticise, but it looks like the 'core' playable rules are being distributed thinly across a broad array of books, How by Stormbull's Jockstrap are we supposed to find stuff we're looking for... heres hoping for a meaty cross book index.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

But then I suspect that we haven't seen the full rules for Rune Lords and Priests yet...

Not meaning to criticise, but it looks like the 'core' playable rules are being distributed thinly across a broad array of books, How by Stormbull's Jockstrap are we supposed to find stuff we're looking for... heres hoping for a meaty cross book index.

That's the feeling I'm getting too. I think a combined SRD with all the bits one needs in all the places one expects to find them is going to become very necessary.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

Hold on, Initiates could get Divine Magic in both RQ2 and RQ3 (although it was strictly one-use). RQ2, page 55, first column, point 2 ("Limited Use of Rune Magic"), for instance. Am I missing something in this argument?

What do you mean? If a RQ3 initiate sacrificed for a Shield 10, he lost then permanent POW and crippled his character!

The point is that Divine Magic is neither more nor less accessible than before. Initiates still have to jump through hoops to get it (even if that fact could have been brought forward a bit more) - Companion page 9: "however, the character must also have dispensation from the leading Runepriests of his chosen place of worship". In the past you had regular POW gain to offset the loss, now you just get the POW back after casting (which will in the long term probably work out much the same). But you're still relatively crippled by those 10 points of Shield (assuming your Cult gives them to you) while you have them in mind.

In fact, it was the introduction of the Acolyte rank in RQ3 (which has been retained in MRQ), giving all of the power of a Priest at a significantly lower cost that really upset the applecart.

And it was also this that let reusable divine magic user join mixed adventure-groups adventuring.

SGL.

Which, IMO, upset the balance. Divine magic was always the ultimate, the head honcho, the holy hand grenade. Giving people relative freedom to wander the world flinging about reusable Divine magic willy-nilly (when their doing so may not be to the direct benefit of the Cult) debased that quite a bit.

 

[Trifletraxor]

But you're still relatively crippled by those 10 points of Shield (assuming your Cult gives them to you) while you have them in mind.

Well, you're not permanently crippled, and if you got into any kind of problems, cast Shield 10 and suddenly you have +10 POW, 20 points protection and 10 points countermagic. Practically invulnerable. But the money cost of divine spells in MRQ could be restricting.

Which, IMO, upset the balance. Divine magic was always the ultimate, the head honcho, the holy hand grenade. Giving people relative freedom to wander the world flinging about reusable Divine magic willy-nilly (when their doing so may not be to the direct benefit of the Cult) debased that quite a bit.

I never saw that as a big problem. Take away 50% of all the stuff they get (50% of income). If you practise that rule all the way, being an acolyte soon shows its downside too. Priests can practically only go on adventures when directed so by the cult, which makes them somewhat unplayable. It's more like a retirement possition.

SGL.

 

[GbajiTheDeceiver]

But you're still relatively crippled by those 10 points of Shield (assuming your Cult gives them to you) while you have them in mind.

Well, you're not permanently crippled, and if you got into any kind of problems, cast Shield 10 and suddenly you have +10 POW, 20 points protection and 10 points countermagic. Practically invulnerable. But the money cost of divine spells in MRQ could be restricting.

True enough, but then you run the risk of not having those 10 points for when you really need them. The tactical dilemma appeals.

 

[Rurik]

One thing that is getting overlooked I think is that Magic Points/POW don't really mean anything in MRQ. They are used to power spells, but not in spirit combat or any type of resistance roll. Having 1 MP does not put a Divine Magic User at any real disadvantage over a person with 18 MP except for overpowering his spells or casting Rune Magic.

How many Rune Levels don't have a fair amount of stored MP in crystals or spirits or whatnot? Having 1 'inherent' MP and 24 stored MP is better than having 18 MP and none stored at fight time.

Of course re-charging those 24 points of stored power is a real pain when you only have 1 MP.

The only real disadvantage to having a lot of POW tied up in Divine Magic is the range of Divine spells decreases as your POW goes down.

 

[gamesmeister]

But as I've already pointed out elsewhere, Rune level characters are also likely to have very high Resists, and the only way you can bust through those resists is by overcharging the spell, which requires MPs.

Also...

Having 1 MP does not put a Divine Magic User at any real disadvantage over a person with 18 MP except for overpowering his spells or casting Rune Magic.

But that's a huge disadvantage!! Rune Magic is the bread and butter magic of the game, and will often be fundamental to survival. Not being able to cast it I think will make life very difficult for a PC.

 

[Rurik]

But as I've already pointed out elsewhere, Rune level characters are also likely to have very high Resists, and the only way you can bust through those resists is by overcharging the spell, which requires MPs.

Also...

Having 1 MP does not put a Divine Magic User at any real disadvantage over a person with 18 MP except for overpowering his spells or casting Rune Magic.

But that's a huge disadvantage!! Rune Magic is the bread and butter magic of the game, and will often be fundamental to survival. Not being able to cast it I think will make life very difficult for a PC.

My point was most Rune level characters have access to stored MP. Having only 1 'personal' MP has no real disadvantage in MRQ - it doesn't hurt you in spirit combat or in spell resistance. Stored MP are just as good as personal MP - and Rune Dudes usually have a good supply of stored MPs. I would say it is pretty necessary in MRQ.

I'm not saying I'm crazy about the system. It penalizes Rune levels for learning to much Rune Magic - you'd think Gods would want their more powerful worshipers to be, well, more powerful - not less powerful. And Divine Spell range suffers as you learn more magic. Plus Rune levels have no real advantage over initiates as far as learning magic goes. I have put a house rule earlier in this thread and put it on the Wiki (see the Wiki Sticky up top) that addresses many of these issues.