Modern/sci-fi firearms and armour.

[Utgardloki]

Of course, for my "Tales of the Association" game, what I'm striving for is not so much realism as "TV realism". Thus, I'll be making rules for knocking out other characters that are probably not realistic, but happens all the time on TV 8)

 

[atgxtg]

My favotire for handling gunfights was the JJames Bond RPG. It also had modifers for movement (MRQ does too, I believe) and zi-zag movement and cover were big factors. Standing still out in the open and anyone can hit you. Move and get behind cover and you might make it out alive.

THe Bond Game was also the game that orginated the concept of Hero Points, so I am very partial to a HP solution. In Bond they worled different. In MRQ terms, 1 HP turned a critical into a success, or a success into a failure. It actually had more that two stages of success, but you get the idea.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Remember the lawyer dodging the client's pistol shots that made the news a while back?

While you can't dodge a bullet, you can get out of the way of the aiming point before its fired, but only if you can see your attacker and you are aware of what's going on.
Close range only.
A penalty to the attacker's skill, say -20% sound reasonable?

At longer ranges I'd use some sort of "dive for cover" option and also have a "move and evade" or just "evading" like in Traveller which makes you harder to hit, especially at range.

 

[Sigtrygg]

My favotire for handling gunfights was the JJames Bond RPG. It also had modifers for movement (MRQ does too, I believe) and zi-zag movement and cover were big factors. Standing still out in the open and anyone can hit you. Move and get behind cover and you might make it out alive.

THe Bond Game was also the game that orginated the concept of Hero Points, so I am very partial to a HP solution. In Bond they worled different. In MRQ terms, 1 HP turned a critical into a success, or a success into a failure. It actually had more that two stages of success, but you get the idea.

Yep, I loved that game.
Saddly, I don't have a copy which is why I turn to Aftermath and Traveller instead.
Players should quickly realise that their characters only survive a gunfight by making the best use of cover etc.

 

[Sigtrygg]

IMO either no dodging bullets or dodge as normal. It's a lot simplier, and a dodge at a penatly is just as unrealistic as a full skill dodge, just more cumbersome.

Just noticed this post.

In the interests of simlicity I'd go with allowing dodging, but only if you've opted for a defend action.

Other penalties will come from target movement etc.

 

[Sigtrygg]

In the Top Secret rules, there was also a penalty for trying to hit a running target. That seems fair. A target could also run and dodge, but at a reduced speed because he'd be zigging and zagging and stopping to make the gunman guess where he was going to be the next second.

I agree. Aftermath and Traveller have similar rules.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I found a copy of the James Bond rpg at a wargames convention this afternoon , so I now have lots of good firearms rules to "borrow" from - Top Secret included.

 

[klingsor]

Firearms can be incredibly lethal but placement – which is largely a mixture of skill and luck seems to be the most important factor – an expert with a .22 is a more dangerous opponent than a muppet with a .45 unless of course the muppet gets lucky.

The damage values you are working with seem too low but necessarily so. Damage is an incredibly difficult thing to model even for the experts. Most of the damage models seem to be more or less wrong especially the ones we are likely to use. Taylor's Knock Out, Hatcher's Relative Stopping Power and Wooter's Lethality Factor have all been discredited. Which is rather a pity as these are all quite simple to calculate and convert into dice of damage. I was able to get a pretty good correlation between the Deadlands damage values with WLF though other games have proved less amenable. Hogg's RSP is a bit better and still easy to calculate.

Problems
You have to be able to reflect reality.

One hit kills. If you cannot kill an elephant with one good shot from a heavy rifle then the system is broken. If I slot somebody who cannot move in the head at touching range then they had better have a really, really slim chance of surviving. We are talking major freak event or hero point expenditure here.

Huge penalties for combat shooting. On the range I am a good shot, if someone was shooting back then I will not shoot quite so well – in fact I am pretty certain I would be complete rubbish. Look at the accounts – Billy the Kid missing a bank teller at about six feet with six shots, the cop missing a perp at about 20 feet with a whole magazine. Combat shooting is hard even with training (the cop at least).

 

[atgxtg]

SO far, I've seen a couple of games that "model" real world firearms fairly well. THe thing to keep in mind is that why everyone "knows" firearmas can kill with a single shot, everyone does not "know" that melee weapons can too. Nor to they realsise just how difficult is is to get that autokill with a firearm. Usually there is a lag between the injury and when the "victim" dies. How active said victim is in the interum is also variable.

IMO the best way to put firearms into MRQ, without a serious rewrite, is to take the old firearm damages from previous BRP products (like Call of Cthulhu) and add an extra die to the damages. THis makes firearms a bit more deadly that a bow, while still keeping the damages low enough to mix in with the other weapons. An M-16 doing 3D8 vs. a broadsword's 1D8 isn't too bad.

 

[Utgardloki]

In reviewing the rules for impalement, I was wondering whether a similar penalty should be assessed to a character who is shot. My idea is:

If a character takes more than 2 points from a gunshot wound, he must roll a Resilience Check or suffer a -10% penalty per point of damage taken for any skill check using the affected hit location.

 

[atgxtg]

In reviewing the rules for impalement, I was wondering whether a similar penalty should be assessed to a character who is shot. My idea is:

If a character takes more than 2 points from a gunshot wound, he must roll a Resilience Check or suffer a -10% penalty per point of damage taken for any skill check using the affected hit location.

In previous RQ and BRP deriatives, bullets could get implae results, repenting things like having a piece of lead stuck in your rincage.

I think just sticking with the normal penalties should apply. A 3 ppoint bullet hit shouldn't penalize a sharacter anymor than a 3 point cut or 3 a point hit with a blunt object.

If you toss in a 10% per point rule, it should apply to other weapons.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Last week I went with the low weapon damage table I originally posted, ballistic armour is doubled versus firearms, archaic armour is halved, and allow impales an extra 1d4 damage die if they penetrate the armour plus the 20% penalty.

They were boarded by pirates while tracking down the raiders who'd caused the mayhem on the station (secret weapons research lab).

Best armour available was the vacc suit (cloth 5b), weapons used were handguns, shotguns, smgs, and a variety of melee weapons like blades , cutlasses, and the boarding axe.

It played out quite well, but I'd be tempted to reduce the impale penalty for bullets.

 

[atgxtg]

Last week I went with the low weapon damage table I originally posted, ballistic armour is doubled versus firearms, archaic armour is halved, and allow impales an extra 1d4 damage die if they penetrate the armour plus the 20% penalty.

They were boarded by pirates while tracking down the raiders who'd caused the mayhem on the station (secret weapons research lab).

Best armour available was the vacc suit (cloth 5b), weapons used were handguns, shotguns, smgs, and a variety of melee weapons like blades , cutlasses, and the boarding axe.

It played out quite well, but I'd be tempted to reduce the impale penalty for bullets.

BTW, I dug out my copy of Wolrds of Wonder/Future World. Would you be interested in any of the armor/weapon values from Future Wolrd?

 

[Sigtrygg]

They could be useful for comparison.

I always thought of FW as higher tech than Traveller, especially with its tacpacks, force fields, and sentient computers.

 

[atgxtg]

They could be useful for comparison.

I always thought of FW as higher tech than Traveller, especially with its tacpacks, force fields, and sentient computers.

Probably a bit higher tech here and lower tech there. It depends on what assumptions one is willing to make. Someof the similarities between Future World, Traveller, and Stargate are interesting.

Future WOlrd armor used adiffert sort of ENC rules. It look like you can just double these values to get ENC for a full suit. It would not be that hard to do a armor chart breakdown for MRQ.

For comparison:

Nylar=Ballistic Armor
Tinsel= Reflec
Chitten= Battle Dress
Carament= Stormtropper Armor

P=Projectile
B=Blaster
L=Laser

Nylar Armor (P-9, B-4, L-5) ENC 2 Cost: 300 cr.
Tinsel Armor (P-2, B-4, L-9) ENC 1 Cost 500 cr.
Chitten Armor (P-5, B-10, L-6) ENC 3 Cost 800 cr.
Ceramet Armor(P-7, B-7, L-7) ENC 3 Cost: 600 cr. (black market price)


THe experience system in Future world looks interesting too. Withe the general shift in MRQ back to RQ2, a lot of stuff in Worlds of Wonder has a new life.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Should I add the Ringworld armour for the sake of completeness?

 

[Halfbat]

Do. Might be difficult, though. Whilst some were straight forward (Flak-Suit) others were very different, which was why the descriptions were so long. For those who haven't seen it a quick summary is:

Reflec Armour, for example, reflecting a %ge of laser damage works somewhat differently.

Impact Armour: AP 25 vs all projectile weapons and 'impact' weapons; 'solidifies' for two CA... (I like the fact you fall if you don't make a Dodge roll ). A lighter version was available for 10 AP with no freeze problem. Armour Penalty at 1 DEX point = -1% but should probably be increased as the suit was bulky.

Frictionless Armour: Unless a bullet hit perpendicularly, it bounces off (don't stand near _anyone_ with this armour! ). Defense was equal to a LUK roll. Armour Penalty equivalent was -2%, but should probably be increased.

 

[AikiGhost]

personally as regards armour vs bullets Id go with the Stormbringer way of doing things. That is give armour a dice value that si rolled whenever a hit is made. Eg kevale armour is 1d8 and so on. This stops anyone ever getting cocky because they are weraing heavy armour as they may roll low for the armour (Ie the bullet finds an under protected area).