Modern/sci-fi firearms and armour.

[Sigtrygg]

In my next MRQ/Traveller game I expect a firefight.

light pistol - 1d8
pistol - 1d10
heavy pistol - 1d12

light rifle - 2d6
medium rifle - 2d8
heavy rifle - 2d10

shotgun - 4d6

laser pistol - 1d10+2
laser carbine - 2d6+4
laser rifle - 2d8+4

gauss pistol - 1d10+1
gauss rifle - 2d8+2

PGMP12 - 3d8+4

Armour values are doubled against high velocity projectile weapons. Very high velocity weapons like the gauss weapons and the DS ACR do not have the armour value doubled.

jack-2
mesh -3
cloth-5
CES-6
combat armour-10
ablat-2[10]
reflec-0[12]

[av] = vs lasers

 

[Enpeze]

In my next MRQ/Traveller game I expect a firefight.

light pistol - 1d8
pistol - 1d10
heavy pistol - 1d12

light rifle - 2d6
medium rifle - 2d8
heavy rifle - 2d10

shotgun - 4d6

laser pistol - 1d10+2
laser carbine - 2d6+4
laser rifle - 2d8+4

Armour values are doubled against high velocity projectile weapons.

jack-2
mesh -3
cloth-5
CES-6
combat armour-8[12]
ablat-2[10]
reflec-0[12]

[av] = vs lasers

You are playing traveller with MRQ rules? Excellent idea. I did this several years before with BRP/CoC rules and it was great. Best wishes to the success of your game.

Did you know that comstar (which is also doing the new traveller 1248 line) plans to make a SF game with MRQ rules? Recently they were looking for freelance writers for it.

 

[Utgardloki]

I plan to be looking at the old Top Secret rules for ideas for guns. The original TS rulebook had very detailed rules taking into account caliber and weapon type. The book even had rules for designing your own guns.

For automatic weapons, I'd like to have something similar to what they have in D20 Modern, where automatic weapons lay down a pattern in which everyone caught within had to save against damage. The damage can be assigned to 1D3 body positions for everyone who gets hit.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Well, that worked pretty well.

By keeping armour values and melee weapons as they are, and doubling the "modern armour" values versus firearms only a crowbar over the head would still threaten someone in a kevlar helmet

I've adapted my favourite gun rules - a blend of Aftermath and Traveller - to handle rates of fire etc.

 

[atgxtg]

Probably the best source for designing weapons in RPGs in Guns! Guns! Guns!.

You might want to up the weapon damages if you want to keep the MRQ weapon damages. Else you will have a longbow doing the same damage as a medium rifle!


MAybe just add another die to the weapon damages?

 

[Sigtrygg]

Increasing the damage would make the firearms too lethal I think, you'll understand why when you see the rate of fire rules I use

The numbers above (note the additional weapons) worked ok last Saturday.

I allow the following rates of fire.

semi-automatic - up to three shots per action, 10% penalty to hit per round fired after the first.

automatic - fires a four round burst, up to three bursts may be fired per action, 20% penalty per burst after the first.

 

[Sigtrygg]

This week's innovation will be looking at adapting EABA's reverse death spiral to MRQ.

 

[atgxtg]

This week's innovation will be looking at adapting EABA's reverse death spiral to MRQ.

INtesting, I like Greg Porter's stuff.

 

[Utgardloki]

Increasing the damage would make the firearms too lethal I think,

That's kind of the reason why I decided to run a Runequest Modern game in the first place.

I want a character to worry if someone points a gun at his head.

Converting the Top Secret gun rules to Runequest is still on my To Do list. My plan for handling armor is to rule that guns ignore an amount of armor based on the type of gun and the type of ammunition used.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Careful how you treat armour.
A kevlar helmet and type IV body armour is immune to a 9mm pistol round, but hit the soldier so equipped over the head with a crowbar it hurts him.
So do you give a kevlar helmet an AR that stops a 9mm round, and halve it versus melee weapons?

I opted to stick with melee as the base and then modify for bullets.

 

[Sigtrygg]

This week's innovation will be looking at adapting EABA's reverse death spiral to MRQ.

INtesting, I like Greg Porter's stuff.

I may have to use the grimm and gritty damage values when they come out to make this work, but the idea is that wounds don't add, only the most serious (highest damage) counts against your location HP.
I may allow a damage bonus based on number of previous wounds to the location...

it sounds more complicated than it plays

 

[King Amenjar]

Probably the best source for designing weapons in RPGs in Guns! Guns! Guns!.

You might want to up the weapon damages if you want to keep the MRQ weapon damages. Else you will have a longbow doing the same damage as a medium rifle!


MAybe just add another die to the weapon damages?

Is 3G still in print? I have a copy of that and echo atgxtg's words on this.

 

[Enpeze]

In my next MRQ/Traveller game I expect a firefight.

light pistol - 1d8
pistol - 1d10
heavy pistol - 1d12

light rifle - 2d6
medium rifle - 2d8
heavy rifle - 2d10

shotgun - 4d6

laser pistol - 1d10+2
laser carbine - 2d6+4
laser rifle - 2d8+4

gauss pistol - 1d10+1
gauss rifle - 2d8+2

PGMP12 - 3d8+4

Armour values are doubled against high velocity projectile weapons. Very high velocity weapons like the gauss weapons and the DS ACR do not have the armour value doubled.

jack-2
mesh -3
cloth-5
CES-6
combat armour-8[12]
ablat-2[10]
reflec-0[12]

[av] = vs lasers

I would give them higher damage values. Dont forget you are playing on a higher TL, not todays weapons.

eg:your 1d10 for medium pistol is the same as a 9mm in CoC of 1920. (better would be at least a 1d12 or 1d12+2)
or a heavy pistol with 1d12 is quite "light" compared to a longbow in MRQ or a hvy crossbow with each 2d8. So I would give for a heavy pistol maybe a 2d8+2 or 2d10+2.

It would also be interesting to be able to fire 1 shot per combat action.

Different munition like explosive ammo should be available for military or special personnel with +1d6 damage per round. The same for AP rounds which maybe halves the value of high tech armor.

Regarding armor, I would also put them higher than just 8 points for combat armor. Medieval plate has 6 points in MRQ, so 8 points for high tech combat armor seems much too low. I would use at least 12 points or even higher. Of course combat armor should only be avallable for special personel or miltary. On higher techlevels (15+) I would even use 20 to 24 armor points for military armor.
The PGMP-12 with 3d8+4 seems powerful, but he average damage of 17,5 is not that much. Some guys can even survive it with medical attention. This should not be, IMO. In Megatraveller a PGMP-12 has 4times the damage of a hvy machinegun! This means at least 8d8 or so. In Gurps traveller is even more dangerous. There it has 6dx8! And Gurps has IMO also a similar lethality rating than MRQ. (a average person has 10 hitpoints)

 

[Utgardloki]

Careful how you treat armour.
A kevlar helmet and type IV body armour is immune to a 9mm pistol round, but hit the soldier so equipped over the head with a crowbar it hurts him.
So do you give a kevlar helmet an AR that stops a 9mm round, and halve it versus melee weapons?

I'm not familiar with how different types of modern armor do against different types of archaic weapons. I could make an armor vs weapon chart like the one they had in 1st edition AD&D. (Were there any other DMs besides myself who actually used that chart?)

Another option is to take into account the type of weapon. Maybe a critical hit on an armored location has a special effect based on the weapon and armor: a crowbar to the head can crush it, or whatever crowbars do to kevlar helmets; a dagger to the arm might slip through the joints in the armor. (And those are about the worst places to get a dagger, and the hardest places to keep daggers out of.)

The question becomes whether to go for realism or simplicity.

 

[AKAramis]

Is 3G still in print? I have a copy of that and echo atgxtg's words on this.

Yes, dead-tree, PDF, and PDF+POD. BTRC.net I'll ask if Greg Porter has any extant RQ2/3 conversions.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I would give them higher damage values. Dont forget you are playing on a higher TL, not todays weapons.

Traveller's handguns aren't much more effective than the best we have today. But having looked into average damage versus usual hit points in a bit more detail I think you're right, the damage values could do with a slight increase.

eg:your 1d10 for medium pistol is the same as a 9mm in CoC of 1920. (better would be at least a 1d12 or 1d12+2)
or a heavy pistol with 1d12 is quite "light" compared to a longbow in MRQ or a hvy crossbow with each 2d8. So I would give for a heavy pistol maybe a 2d8+2 or 2d10+2.

light pistol - 1d12
pistol - 2d8
heavy pistol - 2d10

light rifle - 1d10+1d8
medium rifle - 2d12
heavy rifle - 3d10

shotgun - 4d8

laser pistol - 1d12+6
laser carbine - 2d10+4
laser rifle - 2d12+6

gauss pistol - 1d12+4
gauss rifle - 3d8+6
(n.b. gauss weapons don't double the armour value on a location)

PGMP12 - 4d8+8
(n.b. the plasma hits 1d3 locations and rolls damage for each location struck)

It would also be interesting to be able to fire 1 shot per combat action.

I use the following rates of fire, which are derived from one of my favourite games for gun play - Aftermath.

semi-automatic - up to three shots per action, 10% penalty to hit per round fired after the first.

automatic - fires a four round burst, up to three bursts may be fired per action, 20% penalty per burst after the first.

Note that if you use a flurry combat action it becomes possible to conduct what Traveller used to call "panic fire"

Different munition like explosive ammo should be available for military or special personnel with +1d6 damage per round. The same for AP rounds which maybe halves the value of high tech armor.

I completely agree - note that gauss weapons are considered to be AP.

Regarding armor, I would also put them higher than just 8 points for combat armor. Medieval plate has 6 points in MRQ, so 8 points for high tech combat armor seems much too low. I would use at least 12 points or even higher. Of course combat armor should only be avallable for special personel or miltary. On higher techlevels (15+) I would even use 20 to 24 armor points for military armor.

You've got to be careful that modern ballistic armour doesn't make melee weapons all but useless - which is somewhat unrealistic.
The combat armour listed is for the lightest suit. Higher TL versions are also available which have higher armour ratings.
Then there's battledress - powered armour :twisted:

The PGMP-12 with 3d8+4 seems powerful, but he average damage of 17,5 is not that much. Some guys can even survive it with medical attention. This should not be, IMO. In Megatraveller a PGMP-12 has 4times the damage of a hvy machinegun! This means at least 8d8 or so. In Gurps traveller is even more dangerous. There it has 6dx8! And Gurps has IMO also a similar lethality rating than MRQ. (a average person has 10 hitpoints)

Agreed, see changes above.

 

[atgxtg]

Careful how you treat armour.
A kevlar helmet and type IV body armour is immune to a 9mm pistol round, but hit the soldier so equipped over the head with a crowbar it hurts him.
So do you give a kevlar helmet an AR that stops a 9mm round, and halve it versus melee weapons?

I'm not familiar with how different types of modern armor do against different types of archaic weapons. I could make an armor vs weapon chart like the one they had in 1st edition AD&D. (Were there any other DMs besides myself who actually used that chart?)

Probably the only really significant weaknesses that modern armor has vs archaic weapons are:

1) It is isn't designed to stop cutting weapons. Knives seem to have an advantage against kevlar and similar types of body armor. You can actually slice open the material and the plastic discs can slip out.

2) It is designed to stop point/puncture attacks (a bullet) by sperading out the impact over a wider area. THis means that is isn't quite as effective against attacks that have a wider impact area, specifically blunt weapons. THe armor is going to be doing more to prevent the club from "penetrating" than absorbing kinetic energy. So it probably means more bruises.

Rather than a chart, just halve the AP against those types of attacks.


Probably more important is the effect of modern weapon on archaic armor. Generally most modern weapons will punch through plate. I suggest reducing the APs by 3, so leather doesn't provide any protection at all and even plate is only worth 3 points.

Another option is to take into account the type of weapon. Maybe a critical hit on an armored location has a special effect based on the weapon and armor: a crowbar to the head can crush it, or whatever crowbars do to kevlar helmets; a dagger to the arm might slip through the joints in the armor. (And those are about the worst places to get a dagger, and the hardest places to keep daggers out of.)

The question becomes whether to go for realism or simplicity.

Would you like the old RQ2 Slash & Crush rules?
TBH, I think you might want to look at some of Greg Porter's (they guy who wrote 3G) games like CORPS and EABA or TIMELORDS (the orginal version not the version for CORPS or EABA). THey are a wealth of usefulinformation and ideas that could be incorporated into a RQ Modern setting. You name it, Greg's probably covered it, from lethal dagger rules to zombie oarsmen to thermonuclear weapons.

Hmm, come to think of it RQ daggers could benefit from the wounding skill...

 

[atgxtg]

I would give them higher damage values. Dont forget you are playing on a higher TL, not todays weapons.

Traveller's handguns aren't much more effective than the best we have today. But having looked into average damage versus usual hit points in a bit more detail I think you're right, the damage values could do with a slight increase.

THat was why I mentioned 3G before. THe book also have conversion rulesin the index to covert the stats to 10 different games (Timelords, CORPS, GURPS, TROG/MASTERBOOKS, HERO System, Traveller: New Era, Traveller 4th edtion, Cyberpunk 2020, Battlelords of the 25th Century, Nexus/Feng Shui, and Heavy Gear). THereis also notes on how to concert the stats to other games.

Using the guidelines in 3G and the MRQ weapon damages as benchmarks, it wouldn't be hard to get good weapon values. For instance, off the top of my head I can see that a 9mm pistol would be around 2d8.

 

[Utgardloki]

My thought was to adjust the bullet rather than the armor. That would allow for armor piercing bullets to pierce through armor without doing more damage than hollow point bullets, and to give .22 caliber bullets less penetrating power than .45 bullets. I can also give silver and other exotic material bullets less penetration power than lead or gold or uranium bullets. (My plan is to have heavy and light bullet categories rather than try to determine the penetration value of each kind of material.)

With regard to archaic weapons against modern armor, I'd think that if the motivation was there, a company could figure out how to compensate for weaknesses, but that might entail trade-offs. Throwing in some more research, I could rate that kevlar is only n% effective against slashing weapons, or only provides n points of protection.

The bulletproof armor of the 1970s looks to me like it is fairly sturdy, and very heavy. Once, when I converted the rules for the best armor you could get in the Top Secret rulebook (circa 1982) to Villians and Vigilantes and then to AD&D, I came up with an Armor Class of -2, or 12 points in the 3rd edition system. That's about 50% more effective than platemail, or 20% more effective than field plate, which would be the best archaic armor only available in the most advanced archaic settings.

I don't know, is it worth it to figure out how well bulletproof armor does against different types of archaic weapons, especially since I don't forsee archaic weapons being used much in my game? I'd have to consider different types of bulletproof armor and different types of archaic weapons, and it would add a lot of complexity to the game.

On the other hand, a simple rule like "kevlar is only 1/2 effective against slashing weapons" or perhaps even "slashing weapons degrade kevlar armor" would be worth while.

 

[atgxtg]

I was thinking of bullets vs armor in general.

If you want AP rounds you can do something like: x1.5 damage dice (so a 2d8 pistol goes to 3d8), but half damage after armor.

Hollow Points could be something like 3/4 the damage die-So 2d8 would be 2d6, but any damage through armor gets kicked up by 50%.

Sure a modern company could offset the weakness of modern armor. IN general the reason why they havent is because modern troops don't get into as many sword fights as in the old days. MOdern armor is designed to protect against bullets and shell fragments., that's about it.

Top Secret, V&V and D&D are not really good tools to llo at for comparing the efftiveness of armor or reql world weapons. I've done a lot of modern day conversion stuff for modern RPGs like Bond, and Greg Porter's stuff is hands down the best for designing covnverting weapons for practically any seystem. You can actually design a bullet and the work out the gun that fires it. By the time you are done you will have a design that almost matchest up with real world data down to the mass of the weapon and it's ammo.

TO give you an idea of how good the stuff is, I once took the vehicle design book with me to work and was able to calaculate the tops speeds of every spotts car in a car magazine to with 1 kph just by using the formula in VDS with the car's listed mass, engine and coefficient of drag.