Modern/sci-fi firearms and armour.

[Sigtrygg]

I like! How about at long range you roll number of hits twice and take the lowest result?

WE could do the opposite for criticals, roll twice and take the best result.

That woul also make hero points effective vs burst attacks. If you are at 150m and the guy hits for 1d12 rounds and rolls double 12's, you can spend an HP for a reroll.

That could work and is simple. I like it.

I had another mechanic I will throw out for Autofire, say for every X points you make your roll by 1 round hits.

For example, at short range 1 round hits for every 10 you roll under your skill, medium range 1 round for every 20, and at long 1 round for every 30. So if your skill is 80, and you roll a 33 at medium range, 3 rounds hit.

This also encourages short, controlled bursts, especially at long range, which is realistic.

A bit mathy but a good mechanic for those who don't mind that.

Wow, I go out for the afternoon and all these great ideas start popping up.

Keep it up guys

I like both of these suggestions, especially the degree of success affecting number of rounds hitting.

I should mention that I have an autofire advanced skill that acts in the same way riding affects mounted combat i.e. you use your rifle skill to fire a gauss rifle semi-auto, but if you fire fully automatic then your rifle skill is effectively limited to your autofire skill.

 

[Rurik]

Wow, I go out for the afternoon and all these great ideas start popping up.

Keep it up guys

Whoops, Sigtrygg is back.

Duh, what was I thinkerin about?

(drool)

 

[atgxtg]

I take it that when firing a burst, only the first shot can get the benefit of a critical?

I have a critical with a burst hit with all rounds, but they all have to roll for damage as normal.

:shock:

Overkill. I mean if a 9mm H&K MP5 is going 2d8 per bullet, and you take a short butst, thats something like 3 -5 hits at 2d8 each. THat is pretty much impossible outside of very close ranges. Not to mention how 8 dice of damage is going to shorten the campaign.

Then there are the M-16's, AK-47 to think about.



If someone wants to tinker with the range rules to make multiple increments, a good guideline is to use the sqrt of the range in meters, and apply a -5% per range band. THen just give each weapon a Range Mod than can cancel out some of the range penalty.

For example, a Berreta 92F Pistol could have a range mod of 10%, so at 25m it would be -15% to hit (25-10).

An M-16 could have a range mod of could have a range mod of 20%, and would only be -5% to hit at the same range band (before aiming).

Scopes could be given a magnification rating and divide the rage by the maginfication (SO a x2 score means that a 25m shot is treated as a 12m shot)

 

[Sigtrygg]

For more detailed rules I'd include a recoil rating for each gun - much like in GURPS.

And you're right about the autofire critical - when I used these rules last week I was still using the lower damage values I originally posted.

I'm still tempted to keep the lower damage but allow bullets etc. to impale for full damage plus rolled damage.

As for range, everything so far has been CQB inside a station, so I've use pistol effective range equal to Dex in metres, longarm effective is Dex x 5.

I'd go with the range increment idea...

 

[Rurik]

O.k. - I hadn't read the whole thread before now, but seeing as to how I became an active participant I just did.

I think you may have increased weapon damage a bit much the second time around. Remember CoC is a locationless comabt system (Though my latest version is a few years old). The same damage roll is much deadlier in a location system (d10+2 to total hp much less deadly to d10+2 to a location).

Way back in the day I played a few modern BRP games I also developed a preference for less damage dice to more. I would rather use 1d20 than 3d6, especially when using locations. 3d6 will almost never give a 'glancing' blow against an unarmored limb. I think 2d12 is actually much more survivable than 3d6+2 for example. Minimum damage becomes a very important consideration when getting into the higher damage weapons. The average person will have 5-6 hp in most locations.

Just my 2 credits worth.

 

[Enpeze]

light pistol - 1d12
pistol - 2d8
heavy pistol - 2d10

light rifle - 1d10+1d8
medium rifle - 2d12
heavy rifle - 3d10

shotgun - 4d8

laser pistol - 1d12+6
laser carbine - 2d10+4
laser rifle - 2d12+6

gauss pistol - 1d12+4
gauss rifle - 3d8+6
(n.b. gauss weapons don't double the armour value on a location)

PGMP12 - 4d8+8
(n.b. the plasma hits 1d3 locations and rolls damage for each location struck)

Lets see the handguns:

-light pistol ca. TL:8: d12 (Sigtrygg) average dmg: 6.5
-light pistol ca. TL5-7: 1d6/1d8 (CoC) average dmg: 3.5 to 4.5

suggestion: 1d10 (average dmg): 5.5 damage and use for lower tech levels the CoC damage.


-medium pistol ca. TL8: 2d8 (Sigtrygg) average dmg: 9 points
-medium pistol ca. TL5-7: 1d10 (CoC) average dmg: 5.5 points

suggestion: 1d12 (average dmg: 6.5) on TL8 and use the CoC values on TL5-7.

-heavy pistol ca. TL8: 2d10 (Sigtrygg) average dmg: 11 points
-heavy pistol ca. TL5-7: 2d6+2 (CoC, 44er mag.) average damage: 9

seems absolute ok for me

So generally I would use the CoC damage tables with some slight upgrade for higher techlevel weapons. (damage, range)

And regarding the remark that BRP games with hitlocations are deadlier than those with just general locations. Well, I dont think so. The average HP in CoC is 11-12. In MRQ an average joe dies if he receives between 11 to 15 points on a single vital location. Additionally in MRQ you have a saving throw. I think its much more survivable than CoC. (Cthulhu Now! has hitlocation rules too)

 

[atgxtg]

Quick & Dirt conversion formula fronm C&C to MRQ.

Drop damage die by one step (d12 to d10, etc) and then double the dice.

9mm pistol: 1D10 >> 2d8

M16: 2d8 >> 4d6


How does that look?

 

[Rurik]

And regarding the remark that BRP games with hitlocations are deadlier than those with just general locations. Well, I dont think so. The average HP in CoC is 11-12. In MRQ an average joe dies if he receives between 11 to 15 points on a single vital location. Additionally in MRQ you have a saving throw. I think its much more survivable than CoC. (Cthulhu Now! has hitlocation rules too)

That was based upon using RQ2 hit locations with CoC many many years ago. I think our rules for Location reduced to 0 or less were harsher. As a whole, combat was much deadlier. You had the same total hp as before, which took the same damage (unlike MRQ), with the added layer of damaging a location, which had fewer hp. A .22 with 1d6 damage could disable most locations on the average person. In CoC by the book, It never would (without an impale) disable anyone.

It is true that without total hp there is more survivability. I just worry that an unarmored person gets a limb blown off every time he is hit if you crank the damage (specifically minimum damage) up too high.

 

[Rurik]

Quick & Dirt conversion formula fronm C&C to MRQ.

Drop damage die by one step (d12 to d10, etc) and then double the dice.

9mm pistol: 1D10 >> 2d8

M16: 2d8 >> 4d6


How does that look?

I am again going to express a dislike for too many damage dice. 4d6 will almost always take a location out on an unarmored person. What damage do you give to a 7.62 NATO weapon?

2d12 is still deadly, but you have a chance of survivng.

The odds of rolling 4 1's on d6's is 1 in 1296. The odds are the same for rolling 4 6's.

With 2d12 the odds of rolling minimum damage are 1 in 144. Same for doing 24.

The less dice the more the even the spread of results will be. The more dice the greater the odds of the result being closer to the middle range - i.e. less variance.

 

[atgxtg]

.

It is true that without total hp there is more survivability. I just worry that an unarmored person gets a limb blown off every time he is hit if you crank the damage (specifically minimum damage) up too high.

I'm just worried about all the modern day people putting down thier firearms and picking up an old fashioned 2d8 longbow.

If you scale back the bow damages (say lowbow 1D10, horse bow 1d8, short bow 1d6) then the CoC damage covert over well to MRQ.

To factor in the "stoping power" effect, we could just say than anyone hit by a bullet must make a resisleince roll inorder to act. Keep rolling each round until you recover. THat way you get people dropping without limbs popping off.

 

[Rurik]

I think the root of the problem with firearms/armor/damage in BRP is that damage and penetration are one and the same.

This works fine for primitive systems, but has some problems with ballistics. A low caliber high velocity round is going to go right through classic plate armor, but not necessarily do as much traumatic damage as a battle axe, which does not penetrate the same plate nearly as well.

The solution is usually to crank up damage to punch through more armor. This has the effect of making guns often more powerful than they should be vs. softer targets.

 

[atgxtg]

I think the root of the problem with firearms/armor/damage in BRP is that damage and penetration are one and the same.

This works fine for primitive systems, but has some problems with ballistics. A low caliber high velocity round is going to go right through classic plate armor, but not necessarily do as much traumatic damage as a battle axe, which does not penetrate the same plate nearly as well.

The solution is usually to crank up damage to punch through more armor. This has the effect of making guns often more powerful than they should be vs. softer targets.

Nah, the soultion is to give firearms AP rules. Don't up the damage, but armor is less effective (1/2 AP or just knock off a few points) against bullets.

Much easier and you don't have to make .25ACPs do 2d6 just to get through plate.

 

[Rurik]

I suppose I should propose a solution to the problems in my last post.

I think two armor ratings are in order, kinetic or physical and ballistic. For Sci-fi a third for energy weapons would be in order (which is a gross over-simplification, but what can you do?).

Medieval Armors would be like 6/2/1
Balistic Cloth would be 0/6/0
A flak Vest 4/8/2
Reflective 1/6/9 (assuming an anti laser reflective material with a kevlar like resistance to ballistics)
Future Ceramic/Plastic Hard suit with anti-energy surface(stormtrooper) 8/10/8

Just some wild numbers off the top of my head. Would need much arguing and tweaking.

 

[Rurik]

Much easier and you don't have to make .25ACPs do 2d6 just to get through plate.

Thats what I was getting at. :wink:

 

[atgxtg]

I suppose I should propose a solution to the problems in my last post.

I think two armor ratings are in order, kinetic or physical and ballistic. For Sci-fi a third for energy weapons would be in order (which is a gross over-simplification, but what can you do?).

Medieval Armors would be like 6/2/1
Balistic Cloth would be 0/6/0
A flak Vest 4/8/2
Reflective 1/6/9 (assuming an anti laser reflective material with a kevlar like resistance to ballistics)
Future Ceramic/Plastic Hard suit with anti-energy surface(stormtrooper) 8/10/8

Just some wild numbers off the top of my head. Would need much arguing and tweaking.

Hmmm, we could go with NIB ratingx5 for ballistic cloth. Treat it like padding.

Class I (1/5/0)
Class II (1/10/0)
Class III (1/15/0)

Hmmm..?

 

[Rurik]

I suppose I should propose a solution to the problems in my last post.

I think two armor ratings are in order, kinetic or physical and ballistic. For Sci-fi a third for energy weapons would be in order (which is a gross over-simplification, but what can you do?).

Medieval Armors would be like 6/2/1
Balistic Cloth would be 0/6/0
A flak Vest 4/8/2
Reflective 1/6/9 (assuming an anti laser reflective material with a kevlar like resistance to ballistics)
Future Ceramic/Plastic Hard suit with anti-energy surface(stormtrooper) 8/10/8

Just some wild numbers off the top of my head. Would need much arguing and tweaking.

Hmmm, we could go with NIB ratingx5 for ballistic cloth. Treat it like padding.

Class I (1/5/0)
Class II (1/10/0)
Class III (1/15/0)

Hmmm..?

Or even
Class I (1/5/0)
Class II (2/10/0)
Class III (3/15/0)

Stopping 15 points would require some padding. Just a thought.

Have you ever seen those demo's where they shoot a clay torso wearing a kevlar shirt? The cloth stops the bullets from going through but the chest is all messed up. Broken bones and other trauma damage definately a possibility.

I guess the moral of the story is just not to get shot.

 

[Sigtrygg]

How about ballistic armour is doubled versus firearms, archaic armour is halved?
Energy weapons halve all armour except for special anti-energy coatings, like Traveller's ablat and reflec (although personally I dump reflec most of the time).

 

[Rurik]

How about ballistic armour is doubled versus firearms, archaic armour is halved?
Energy weapons halve all armour except for special anti-energy coatings, like Traveller's ablat and reflec (although personally I dump reflec most of the time).

That works too, but cuts our room to fiddle and argue over each little value.

Would there be standard armor? The old Stormtrooper armor should be good against all three types of weapons.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I think I will stick with these damage values:

light pistol - 1d8
pistol - 1d10
heavy pistol - 1d12

light rifle - 2d6
medium rifle - 2d8
heavy rifle - 2d10

shotgun - 4d6

laser pistol - 1d10+2
laser carbine - 2d6+4
laser rifle - 2d8+4

gauss pistol - 1d10+1
gauss rifle - 2d8+2

PGMP12 - 3d8+4

and allow impales an extra 1d4 damage die.

It'll stop ballistic armour values having to become high to stop bullets, and yet unarmoured, or inappropriate armour, will be potentially lethal.

 

[atgxtg]

How about ballistic armour is doubled versus firearms, archaic armour is halved?
Energy weapons halve all armour except for special anti-energy coatings, like Traveller's ablat and reflec (although personally I dump reflec most of the time).

That works too, but cuts our room to fiddle and argue over each little value.

Would there be standard armor? The old Stormtrooper armor should be good against all three types of weapons.

Or be bad against all three. I don't recall seeing any old Stromtroppers. :shock:

Actually the half/double rule works. If we need to fiddle we could always do a special case armor-like mirrored bodysuit. Full vs. lasers no protection from anything else.