Minbari: The jammiest race in the galaxy

[Locutus9956]

First battle of the campaign for my lovely ISA out my local club: 8 point Battle Vs Minbari: Oh goody thinks me: I can try out the power of my Victory.

Turn 1, after some initiative sinking with various whitestars and bluestars the victory bravely plows ahead into the minbari, parking itself between a couple of Tigaras and right in front of a Leshath, nicely putting it within the 8" 'stealth? hah I laugh at your puny stealth" range and also getting past the Tigaras forward fire arcs, leaving me with only a few fusion beams to worry about from the three ships before I blast the Lehshath with 6 Neutron lasers, and give the Tigaras half my turreted weapons each. MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!.

Start of firing. The sharlin across the table takes a pot shot at the victory. First shot of the game mind you . Crit. 4. 6. No weapons fire.....

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

(I did my best after that point but with half my fleet effectively useless (the stupid thing failed to repair itself for the next 3 turns and took about another 47 billion crits too (though thanfully it never too a speed 0 no specials one)and bluestars dropping like flies to massed fusion beams the game was more or less over before it started so I withdrew after a couple more turns). Eventually the damaged victory limped off the table having not fire a shot.

And this is my biggest issue with ACTA. The game is still decided too much on how lucky you are with crits. That goes for ALL races. Now Im all for crits being nasty but they shouldnt be game winning from one roll, not even against huge ships like the Victory. I still think the idea Burger had ages ago about redundancy would help but overall I think some crits are just a bit too 'final'. Ive heard things arenet as bad in 2nd ed and crits are less game dominating but we shall see. At the moment its just a bit annoying when stuff like this happens the game was won more or less entirely because of 1 dice roll at the start of the game, there was no way for the Victory to avoid taking the sharlins fire and the minari just advanced towards me without being careful or anything and I specifically moved the VCD to AVOID as much nasty weapons fire as possible while inflicting max damage with its opening volley but one single lucky shot ended it all. That just shouldnt happen.

OK rant over

 

[Burger]

the stupid thing failed to repair itself for the next 3 turns

You stayed for 3 turns?? After that start, for me it'd be "jump point time".

Redundancy was Reaverman's idea, much as I'd like to take credit for it, cos its a great idea :lol:
Apparently crits will be much easier to repair in 2e, although some of them do involve losing traits! NO GET RID OF THAT STUPID RULE!

 

[Valen is my name]

so a crit against a victory could get rid of adaptive armour, or its carrier 2 or something?!?

 

[Lord David the Denied]

The shoe would be on the other foot, though, if a single beam from your Victory had scrapped his Sharlin. With ships like the Victory, you need a critica hit to stop it; without crits, you just chip at away its vast hull and crew scores for turn after turn, achieving nothing, while its guns blow your fleet apart.

BFG handles this much better. Damage score are far lower and critical hits, while nasty, don't control the game. A few turns of firing from a capital ship will see off another capital ship unless you roll nothing but ones and twos. Even a battleship needs only lose twelve hit points and it's a smouldering wreck.

 

[Locutus9956]

I dont mind losing traits as long as they let you REPAIR them too.... if not then I agree, GET RID OF THAT STUPID RULE (or at least make it only apply to some traits like interceptros or self repair) Still potentially a bit on the harsh side. (or do traits lost due to said crits come back when you repair the crit?)

Anyway the main reason I stayed three turns is simple, I was still hoping the VCD was going to fix its guns after a turn or two and I could at least obliterate a Minbari ship or two on my way out. In the end I decided it would be safer to run for the board edge anyway than jumping by the time I decided to withdraw (if Id known how my repairs were going to go Id have jumped on the spot )

 

[CZuschlag]

Valen; consider you could lose Dodge, GEG, Agile (a new, and I'm guessing powerful, trait), Shield, Fleet Carrier, Command, Self-Repair ... even losing something major like Stealth! Without additonal qualifiers, I expect you could lose just about anything.

Technically, I suppose you could lose Lumbering or Immobile, but I bet there's a rule that covers that. There ought to be.

 

[animus]

I'm a big believer in Redundancy (but I think "Bulk" would more ably describe it). In the current arrangement, there's not much incentive to take big ships over little ones.

Word on the street is that the crit issue is being fixed in 2e, but I'll admit I'm wary of what they might do. If there is a single rule in the new edition that I think should be vetted in this forum, it would be the critical hit tables.

 

[Burger]

I dont mind losing traits as long as they let you REPAIR them too.... if not then I agree, GET RID OF THAT STUPID RULE (or at least make it only apply to some traits like interceptros or self repair) Still potentially a bit on the harsh side. (or do traits lost due to said crits come back when you repair the crit?)

I would imagine they are fixed when you repair the crit. That would make sense (oh dear its that word again!)

Its still unfair because it affects some races far more than others. Minbari without stealth are boned. White Star without dodge is boned. Targrath without jump point? Ka'Toc without.... hmm, no traits.

 

[Locutus9956]

Yes the Victory could scrap the Sharlin in a single shot in theory but most likely not. It COULD easily crit his sharlin out of the game and that I think WOULD be stupid too. It's not ships getting downed quickly I mind its just the fact that its not even to do with firepower its just a lucky dice roll.

I dont mind the Victory taking a crit that REDUCES its firepower or even inflicts heavy damage or like a 6-4 or something or a 4,4 crit or even a 4,5. But theres a few crits in the game currently that are just a bit TOO potent for single dice (the speed 0 no specials ones, and the no weapons may fire)

 

[Locutus9956]

I dont mind losing traits as long as they let you REPAIR them too.... if not then I agree, GET RID OF THAT STUPID RULE (or at least make it only apply to some traits like interceptros or self repair) Still potentially a bit on the harsh side. (or do traits lost due to said crits come back when you repair the crit?)

I would imagine they are fixed when you repair the crit. That would make sense (oh dear its that word again!)

Its still unfair because it affects some races far more than others. Minbari without stealth are boned. White Star without dodge is boned. Targrath without jump point? Ka'Toc without.... hmm, no traits.

But then again you have to actually BEAT said traits to hit Minbari and Whitestars to inflict the crits in the first place....

 

[Burger]

But then again you have to actually BEAT said traits to hit Minbari and Whitestars to inflict the crits in the first place....

Yes, but these races can have their main defence mechanism taken offline by a crit. Other races, for example a G'Quan, their main defence (ie. Hull 6) can't be removed.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

I dont mind the Victory taking a crit that REDUCES its firepower or even inflicts heavy damage or like a 6-4 or something or a 4,4 crit or even a 4,5. But theres a few crits in the game currently that are just a bit TOO potent for single dice (the speed 0 no specials ones, and the no weapons may fire)

Sure it's a pain in the arse, but it's supported by what we see on screen. Ships get hit and the engines go down, or the weapons go offline, or sensors, or whatever. Maybe critical hits are too frequent, but I don't think they're too nasty.

 

[H]

But then again you have to actually BEAT said traits to hit Minbari and Whitestars to inflict the crits in the first place....

Yes, but these races can have their main defence mechanism taken offline by a crit. Other races, for example a G'Quan, their main defence (ie. Hull 6) can't be removed.

Thats the price of an advanced trait though surely. Stealth 5 and hull 5 is better than hull 6 overall. so if they never loose their stealth, they certainly never loose their hull 5, so they "should" be better for it.
I think a complete loss is wrong, but a partial loss that can be repaired is quite acceptable.

 

[Burger]

Stealth 5 and hull 5 is better than hull 6 overall. so if they never loose their stealth, they certainly never loose their hull 5, so they "should" be better for it.

Not really. Hull 5 ships take approximately double the hits of hull 6 ship. Stealth 5 is normally reduced to stealth 4 by range, scouts or race bonus, or even lower to 3 or 2, so that is a 50/50 thing at best. So stealth 5+hull 5 = hull 6.

 

[CZuschlag]

No, Burger's point is absolutely valid. Some ships/races depend upon traits fundamentally. The ones I can see are:

-- Minbari
-- Shadows
-- ISA
-- Vorlon
-- Drakh

The Vorlons will now be able to take true crits (as I understand it), so they get into this list. That critical is now a big, big deal to these folks. Each of the above have a padding trait (Flight Computer can often be used just like an extra useless weapon arc ... think the Rohric's Virus Bomb, for example), but you hit something good 33% against Shadows, 50% or so of the time with Minbari, 50% of the time with Vorlons, 60% of the time with ISA, 50% on Drakh Beam ships and 66% of the time with Drakh light vessels. That's a lot! If that persists (and if the crit is common!) these races need some other consideration to help out.

It looks like there is some sort of Minbari boost with the new Stealth mechanism (Minbari fire at the first ship that passes a stealth check to maintain their stealth ratings), ISA got nastier based on the CAF change and Scout for only 1 fighter flight deals, but the Shadows, Vorlons, and the Drakh are on the wrong ends of this one.

 

[H]

Stealth 5 and hull 5 is better than hull 6 overall. so if they never loose their stealth, they certainly never loose their hull 5, so they "should" be better for it.

Not really. Hull 5 ships take approximately double the hits of hull 6 ship. Stealth 5 is normally reduced to stealth 4 by range, scouts or race bonus, or even lower to 3 or 2, so that is a 50/50 thing at best. So stealth 5+hull 5 = hull 6.

but then you are assuming that you have got into range, avoided return fire, got your lock on and beat the stealth score.
I'm sorry, but in numerous games versus stealth, the comments of many that stealth is so easy to beat, means crap all, it is still down to the random power of chance

 

[Burger]

Yes of course it is down to the randomness of dice. But if probabilities don't make a difference then how would you feel about taking a Tethys against a Vorlon Heavy Cruiser? Come on, you can win, its all down to the dice on the day!!!

Getting the probabilities right is what we call "balance". The fact is, almost every game, a Sharlin's stealth will be reduced to 4 or below for most of the game. Some days you'll beat it every turn and butcher it. Other days you'll never hit it once. But overall across all players (to eliminate bad dice rollers!) the chance will be 50%.

 

[H]

the first couple of turns define it I suspect, with the sharlins ramge, and forward arc, probably mullering your G'Quans before they reduce stealth enough

hang on, are you arguing with me, I may have to go whining to someone and get your post pulled!

 

[Burger]

My post gets pulled regularly enough, thanks

 

[H]

oo-err missus!!