Minbari: The jammiest race in the galaxy

[thePirv]

LMFAO!!! Dirty Burger :lol:

*Rant mode on*

and the Drakh are on the wrong ends of this one.

Dude, the Drakh get the crappy end of the stick every time. No support in Armageddon, still nothing new for them despite many other races getting buckets of support even though they don't need it (like the EA) and promises for support in the not too distant future, some people having to wat over a year to get a Drakh Mothership they paid for at launch (how's that going anyway Hiff?), getting boned by the new Fighter movement rules.
So not really a surprise here

*Rant mode off*

 

[TenaciousB]

LMFAO!!! Dirty Burger :lol:

*Rant mode on*

and the Drakh are on the wrong ends of this one.

Dude, the Drakh get the crappy end of the stick every time. No support in Armageddon, still nothing new for them despite many other races getting buckets of support even though they don't need it (like the EA) and promises for support in the not too distant future, some people having to wat over a year to get a Drakh Mothership they paid for at launch (how's that going anyway Hiff?), getting boned by the new Fighter movement rules.
So not really a surprise here

*Rant mode off*

Spare a thought for the Dilgar community as well - the rate the game is going, I wouldn't be surprised if the Dilgar could only play in games with proper in-service dates, which would be a shame.

 

[Triggy]

Crits aren't as bad in 2nd ed. generally (there are no "game over" crits - no auto-kills and no all weapons destroyed. Combine this with them being easier to repair and it's not so bad.

Yes you can lose traits (about three of the results IIRC) but you can repair these too (unless you've lost them to being crippled) so it's still not the end of the world.

Finally - no you can't lose Lumbering or Immobile

 

[CZuschlag]

Considering how fast a WS, GEG ship, or Vorlon dies without Dodge, GEG, or Adaptive, (and likely the loss felt by the Abbai if they lose the Shield trait) you may want to re-evaluate your assessment that losing one of these traits isn't a game-ender.

3 results out of 36 combinations is WAAAY overboard. That's one hit out of every 72, and virtually guaranteed to happen at least 2-3 times per normal game.

If it's more, it's worse.

Might I suggest that some traits are not destroyed, but "impaired" or "degraded"? Dodge goes down by two (WSC-2 goes to Dodge 5, HR loses its dodge), Adaptive cuts damage down to 3/4 (round up), GEG degraded by 1 or 2 -- Shield probably has a different schedule/value. Self-Repair is halved....

 

[Triggy]

Considering how fast a WS, GEG ship, or Vorlon dies without Dodge, GEG, or Adaptive, (and likely the loss felt by the Abbai if they lose the Shield trait) you may want to re-evaluate your assessment that losing one of these traits isn't a game-ender.

3 results out of 36 combinations is WAAAY overboard. That's one hit out of every 72, and virtually guaranteed to happen at least 2-3 times per normal game.

If it's more, it's worse.

Might I suggest that some traits are not destroyed, but "impaired" or "degraded"? Dodge goes down by two (WSC-2 goes to Dodge 5, HR loses its dodge), Adaptive cuts damage down to 3/4 (round up), GEG degraded by 1 or 2 -- Shield probably has a different schedule/value. Self-Repair is halved....

Well, with seven traits at the moment and only one random one lost per time this happens, the odds of losing Dodge or Adaptive Armour are actually once per 251 hits. Not exactly every shot now is it?

 

[CZuschlag]

I assume it's like losing a random arc. The understood is "one random arc that you possess."

It'll be the same with the lose a trait, right?


There are a lot more than 7 (that I imagine you could lose, that is...)!

Agile
Adaptive
AJP
Afterburner
Carrier
Command
Dodge
Fleet Carrier
Flight Computer
Gravitic Energy Grid
Huge Hangars
Interceptor
Jump Point
Lumbering
Scout
Self-Repair
Shield
Shuttles
Stealth

I count 19.

 

[Da Boss]

I he thinking Victory's 7 traits - Adaptive Armour, Flight Comp, AJP, Self repair, Command, interceptors, Afterburner, (white star has 5)

 

[Ripple]

Actually I will disagree with the stealth 5 + hull 5 being equal to hull 6.

Your assuming that stealth is being reduced at least one. So his scout made the roll (4+ for most), he has flights within 4 inches (dead flight), he's one of the older races (or one odd ea ship) or has managed range eight on some fairly maneuverable ships. Maybe more as some of these stack (not all races can do all the above). Fair enough.

Hull 5 only takes double the hits against straight dice. It takes only 50% more vs ap dice, and only 25% more vs sap (and for completeness sake it takes the same number of hits vs weak). So even with your situation of stealth being one down (50/50 or halving the number of hits you take) a ship with stealth 5 + hull 5 is taking half the hits vs weak, an even number vs standard ad, 25% less vs ap and 33% less vs sap in relation to a hull 6 no other defense ship.

Given the prevalence of weapon traits in the game, especially on the heavy weapons that matter most and get the most (and earliest) opportunities to fire, I don't see much weight to argument that the steath 5/hull 5 combo is not better than hull 6. And that does not address the importance of complete turns free of being hit (and possibly crit out of a special action at a important time).

That said it weighs more heavily the fact that having ships lose traits, where they depend on those traits for defense, is even more damaging. I actually like the idea of critical hits damaging traits, but would rather see them reducing traits by one (possibly cumulatively) and/or removing weapon traits rather than ship traits.

From a fluff perspective I have no issue with the stealth systems being hit and going down. From a game mechanic stand point I can see the argument that its as damaging as being all stop'd or no weapons fire crits, both of which are viewed with some suspicion by many players. I do not see it as a death knell for most races losing a trait...but dodge dependent ships (generally tiny), geg dependent ships (low hull makes them fighter bait) and stealth dependent ships (some are low hull or low damage, varies here) can have issues. Degrade might be better here.

As was said above, you do have to fight past these traits to get your crit in the first place (well not GEG) so they will have done there job at least once. The fact that some ships do not have traits is not an argument that holds any water as we already have hugely disproportionate effects from crits already. Losing an arc on ship that have only one or two is devestating, losing that af turret hardly counts as a crit on a Kaliva. All stop is only interesting on some ships (front arc beam folk here) if it comes at the right time, bore sighted ship...it means you don't fire at all.

Anyway...rambled enough...

Ripple

 

[Ripple]

Bah...teach me to really take some time to post...whole conversation happened...sigh...

Ripple

 

[CZuschlag]

Not all ... the point about how Stealth 5/Hull 5 is drastically than Hull 6 vs. new Beam (in particular!!) and SAP weaponry is very, very valid; a highly important concept itself.

EDIT: Ripple, Cumulative degradation: Totally Agree. Cool idea.

 

[Harry Lonsdale]

Yes, but these races can have their main defence mechanism taken offline by a crit. Other races, for example a G'Quan, their main defence (ie. Hull 6) can't be removed.

If Hull is considered to be more than just physical armor, I could see it being reduced by critical hits as shield generators go offline or whatever.

And I don't think that losing a defensive trait like that would be much worse than losing the ability to fire out of a random arc on a ship that only has 1 or 2 to begin with (a little worse, since it would be easier to survive long enough to repair loss of an offensive rather than defensive system, but not a huge difference).

 

[Triggy]

I he thinking Victory's 7 traits - Adaptive Armour, Flight Comp, AJP, Self repair, Command, interceptors, Afterburner, (white star has 5)

Actually I do mean the White Star, and I recounted... in 2nd ed. it's actually 8 traits

 

[lastbesthope]

so a crit against a victory could get rid of adaptive armour, or its carrier 2 or something?!?

Assuming we're discussing the current set of first edition rules, then the only way a crit can cause traits to be lost is if the crit causes sufficient damage to cripple the ship and then you roll a 4 or more for that trait.

You repair traits by expending RR to uncripple the ship IIRC.

LBH

 

[katadder]

read the whole thread LBH, they talking about the 2e crit table where you can lose traits on certain crits. these can be repaired however with the crit that caused it (unless they are vital crits of course, although a vorlon could repair them too).

 

[lastbesthope]

Sorry, but I am playing a week and a half of catch up.

:lol:

LBH

 

[Burger]

I do like cumulative degredation rather than instant loss, for trais such as stealth and dodge
Interesting effect, but not debilitating.

 

[Hash]

Cumalative degradation eh? Does have merit - will need to think on it some, wouldn't want it to be too cumbersome to track...

I generally concur with the comments Locutus, Burger, Ripple and Czushlag have been making...although am encouraged by Triggy's response to that for V2, looks like you guys have put some thought into this area

I do think generally that the current version of ACTA is far too likely to result in strategy being thrown out the window as the result of a single D6 roll often makes or breaks a 5pt raid game.

Anything to reign in this type of occurence and make the game more dependent on good judgement rather than fluke rolls would be most welcome and I have high hopes for ACTA v2

To be honest though, I'm pretty sure that I will end up playing whatever version of ACTA my group feels plays well rather than rely on Mongoose to tailor their game to our playing preferences. Sounds strange but I think, from repeated experience, our idea of game balance differs fom the Mongoose design team significantly and, as a result, I have two options.

1. Don't play
2. Tweak the rules to my gaming group play style...

We use 2 and have fun rather than argue anymore...at least I do

(I think we may house rule that JP bombs are banned as "just wrong" from all Sentient Rabbit games and tourneys ) but it does stuff up official tourneys making me less likely to want to get involved outside my group unfortunately

 

[Banichi]

First battle of the campaign for my lovely ISA out my local club: 8 point Battle Vs Minbari: Oh goody thinks me: I can try out the power of my Victory. Eventually the damaged victory limped off the table having not fire a shot.

You did better than me. Last night I got my Victory blown up by a squadron of prefects on turn two.

 

[Johnny D]

Trait loss could be hard but it's nothing as bad as some of the criticals in play now and the game still works.
If it's randomised then it doesn't sound too unbalanced and feels right to me.
You can argue that being able to take out a Sharlins stealth in 1 hit is too powerful, but I'd take it every time over losing alll it's guns, plus my understanding is that it's going to be much easier to repair criticals.
I'm still in favour of having a repair roll for every 10 crew your have left rounding up. Gives crew more of a role and makes big ships better in one sweep.
Just seems like a good way of clearing up a few issues (plus my T'loth would be able to repair things rather than spending so much time imobilised like it seems to currently poor thing).
Still making repairs a bit easier and crits less scary should mainly fix it. Bring on 2E

 

[Stonehorse]

I wouldn't say Minbari are lucky, but rather the battle report shows how unbalanced the Critical damage can be.

As for 2nd edition, if Stealth can be lost then along with all the reductions on stealth, the Minbari who need Stealth would be at a serious disadvantage.

I'll still be holding judgement till I've got a copy of 2nd edition in my hands... when ever it comes out.