Merits of the Playtest Combat System.

[Donkeykong]

Hi everyone.
I have been using the Playtest Combat system with streamlining. It works really well and can be used as necessary alongside the Core Rulebook system.

I tweaked it a bit:
1. Dodge drops the Initiative dice only 1 point.
2. No sequence of play. All movement and firing (inc. hastening) occurs on your turn.
3. Lowest rolled dice is Initiative / Timing dice for all attacks. Damage is rolled for each hit as per Core book.

The resultant system is great, it seems to achieve what Azhanti High Lightning (and Snapshot) aimed for, a useful tactical system. I would love to see the system appear as an advanced Combat supplement.
Many many compliments to the unknown designers.

 

[Infojunky]

Hi everyone.
I have been using the Playtest Combat system with streamlining. It works really well and can be used as necessary alongside the Core Rulebook system.

I tweaked it a bit:
1. Dodge drops the Initiative dice only 1 point.
2. No sequence of play. All movement and firing (inc. hastening) occurs on your turn.
3. Lowest rolled dice is Initiative / Timing dice for all attacks. Damage is rolled for each hit as per Core book.

The resultant system is great, it seems to achieve what Azhanti High Lightning (and Snapshot) aimed for, a useful tactical system. I would love to see the system appear as an advanced Combat supplement.
Many many compliments to the unknown designers.

Too bad that isn't what made it into the book though....

 

[Donkeykong]

What do you think..

Azhanti High Lightning 2.
A supplement for Traveller.

A boxed set containing dynamic and simple advanced combat rules suitable for small actions aboard starships.

May be utilised as part of a narrative role playing game without board or counters.

 

[Infojunky]

Go for it...

 

[Donkeykong]

Wow. Short and sweet.
If only it were that simple.
I think Mongoose would need to be the people to go for it.
I wonder if they could be persuaded.

 

[Infojunky]

Wow. Short and sweet.
If only it were that simple.
I think Mongoose would need to be the people to go for it.
I wonder if they could be persuaded.

Well you could write your version and publish it under the Traveller OGL.

 

[Donkeykong]

This is a good idea but ... lets play "Name the Close Combat System".
There have been many. I suspect my version may only add its name to the forgotten lists. The Mongoose Rules are already written (and by all accounts playtested).
They may listen to support from this column if lots of people respond.
I can only encourage you to try them - use figures and floorplans and the modifications listed at the start of the thread.
Don't forget - just the combat rules in the document below.

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/pdf/Traveller%20Playtest%20Doc.pdf -

 

[Dave Chase]

What do you think..

Azhanti High Lightning 2.
A supplement for Traveller.

A boxed set containing dynamic and simple advanced combat rules suitable for small actions aboard starships.

May be utilised as part of a narrative role playing game without board or counters.

I specifically asked Matt about AHL and SnapShot. He said that there was no plans to make either one of those games in the future but that they (Mongoose) was developing a 'universal' set of combat game rules.

(The word universal is my paraphrasing Matt.)

Dave Chase

 

[captainjack23]

Hi everyone.
I have been using the Playtest Combat system with streamlining. It works really well and can be used as necessary alongside the Core Rulebook system.

I tweaked it a bit:
1. Dodge drops the Initiative dice only 1 point.
2. No sequence of play. All movement and firing (inc. hastening) occurs on your turn.
3. Lowest rolled dice is Initiative / Timing dice for all attacks. Damage is rolled for each hit as per Core book.

The resultant system is great, it seems to achieve what Azhanti High Lightning (and Snapshot) aimed for, a useful tactical system. I would love to see the system appear as an advanced Combat supplement.
Many many compliments to the unknown designers.

I quite liked the system, and would be happy to see it resurrected. I like your timing resolution change. What is the benefit of reducing the dodge init penalty ?

 

[BP]

OK - I downloaded this and found the combat on pg 63 - but haven't looked in detail at it (though I like the fact that it has an example - somehting I found lacking in Core)..

How is this different from what ended up being printed - and more importantly why?

 

[captainjack23]

The 3.2 version has a different inititive system from core, and used timing/effect mechanism for combat damage resolution and initiative effects of attacks.

It had a nifty very old-school traveller skirmish game feel to it. There were some basic problems with T/E as proposed in that version, so caveat emptor.

However, our local Klaus posted an excellent and simple fix for the T/E mechanic that had specific advantages for combat.

http://www.mongoosepublishing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=33185

Those posts describe the system and the rationale behind it.

It was by no means unchallenged, as a simple search for Timing + Effect + ty +beard will show. But I liked it.

Aramis also had some suggestions, the simple version being fairly similar to Klaus's.

 

[captainjack23]

As to why, two theories exist:
1. The T/E mechanism was held to be inherently broken and unfixable, and mainly due to the tireless efforts of its main critic, was finally ditched. Thus combat had to change.

2. I asked Matt, and his response was that the 3.2 system had the players paying more attention to the dice and initiative rules than to the roleplaying aspects. A reasonable issue, but not one that bothered me or my group.

 

[Donkeykong]

What is the benefit of reducing the dodge init penalty ?

A drop of two points loses a turn, possibly of firing. Quite a cost for the dodge modifier. One point is more palatable to the player..but one point dodges can accumulate over a turn.

 

[BP]

... had the players paying more attention to the dice and initiative rules than to the roleplaying aspects.

Thanks for the answers - and that was my initial take from just glancing at the test rules. (The system sounds nice - but the accounting and rollng might lessen the overall experience.)

I love the examples though - does anyone know if similar exist for the published rules?

 

[Donkeykong]

I specifically asked Matt about AHL and SnapShot. He said that there was no plans to make either one of those games in the future but that they (Mongoose) was developing a 'universal' set of combat game rules.

(The word universal is my paraphrasing Matt.)

Dave Chase

If Mongoose were concerned about the complexity of the 3.7 Combat System it is unlikely their generic (or Universal) system will use it.

This leaves room for a Traveller specific supplement which I find a very attractive idea. To fold the (simplified) 3.7 combat rules into the ruleset as an advanced option can only strengthen Traveller as a system.
Traveller combat often does move toward the small scale Tactical and the 3.7 system is perfect for this.
The System could be released as part of a very attractive package including Tactical Scenarios for role playing (just like Azhanti High Lightning.

As mentioned earlier I have been successfully using the 3.7 system as required alongside the Basic system in the Core Book.

For those reading this who are not familiar with the expanding range of Jargon in this Column the simlified system is basically this:
Combat is resolved on a map with 1.5m squares using counters.
At combat start all characters roll Initiative using 1D6 modified by Dex Modifier, ambushers start at automatic 6.
A D6 is placed next to each character to keep track of Initiative.
Action is in Turns starting with ambushing Side then alternating or settle using competitive Tactics check.

Each character acts once in the turn:
First add 2 to the characters Initiative dice,
option then to move 1 square free,
option to move up to 2 squares reducing Initiative Dice by 2 for each square,
option to fire increasing difficulty by 2 for each point Initiative is below 6 when fire declared.
Roll to hit as per core system. Take lowest dice rolled (to hit) as new initiative dice. Roll damage as Core System.
Place new initiative next to character.Their Turn is now over.

If fired at character can declare Duck to cover (if available) gaining -4 to be hit and costing 2 initiative OR dodge gaining -2 to be hit and losing 1 Initiative. (I allow characters ducking to cover to move 1 square if appropriate e.g through adjacent doorway).
After all characters on 1 side have acted swap to other side ad infinitum.

Most importantly note that the term Effect (used in the 3.7 Document) is no longer applicable or used in the Core system. Following the above system (with the 3.7 Combat Rules) removes the use of Effect, the term can be ignored.
Note that the Timing dice is the Initiative D6, the lowest rolled attack D6 (and yes, handfuls of autofire dice will tend to produce a lower initiative).

Hopefully this simpler Turn Based 3.7 combat (which retains all of the beauty of the system) will be more acceptable to those justly aware of the complexity of the initial 3.7 system. And hopefully my harping on isn't insulting the wonderful designers.

 

[captainjack23]

If Mongoose were concerned about the complexity of the 3.7 Combat System it is unlikely their generic (or Universal) system will use it.


Hopefully this simpler Turn Based 3.7 combat (which retains all of the beauty of the system) will be more acceptable to those justly aware of the complexity of the initial 3.7 system. And hopefully my harping on isn't insulting the wonderful designers.

Not trying to be pedantic, but do you mean 3.2 ? that is the version of the playtest that has been referenced. Am I missing something ?

 

[Donkeykong]

You obviously miss nothing. I obviously do.
Thanks for reading all this.

I'm modifying the 3.2 document (combat rules only) to send to Mongoose and suggest inclusion in Signs and Portents following (or for) some playtesting.

As a late arrival here I am getting the bad feeling that the 3.2. rules were subject to the process of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

My butchery of their fine ideas has reduced the system to its basic structure and I'm really hoping it might be simple enough to use. A compromise but a lesser one.

On a different note: I analysed the Mechanics of the Core book system to work out what had been lost in the rewrite.

The main Fudge is Fluid Initiative, everything else is there in useable form. Maybe I should turn energy towards a way of re- introducing True Fluid initiative as originally planned, the suppression effect is great and cannot occur under the current system. I does not matter how low your Initiative score goes -you still act in turn.

The Autofire rules were much better in 3.2 rules (was mulling on this last night).

A difficult target (11+ on the dice to hit) is more likely to be hit with a crazy blurt of autofire than a carefully aimed rifle:
Current : Roll 4 dice pairing as required to produce 2 to hit rolls.
3.2 original: Roll 4 dice, keep lowest and add each other dice to this to produce 3 to hit rolls.
As you can see hanging all the totals onto the lowest dice is likely (if that dice rolls low) to be a collection of misses thus reflecting the randomness of Autofire - this rule could be introduced yet.

 

[Donkeykong]

Hi All.

The official reply from Mongoose is that it is unlikely that they will publish the Combat System.

The suggestion that it could be simplified seems not to be a factor.

Thanks for following this Thread.

To summarise: if you need a Mongoose Traveller Tactical Combat System download from the link previously placed in this Thread.

It is very good for resolving larger combats using ship floorplans and figures/counters.

Does anyone feel it would be useful to have a similar system printed as a supplement by a third party?

 

[Infojunky]

Does anyone feel it would be useful to have a similar system printed as a supplement by a third party?

Alternate Combat systems a traditional Traveller Pastime.

 

[captainjack23]

Hi All.

The official reply from Mongoose is that it is unlikely that they will publish the Combat System.

The suggestion that it could be simplified seems not to be a factor.

Thanks for following this Thread.

To summarise: if you need a Mongoose Traveller Tactical Combat System download from the link previously placed in this Thread.

It is very good for resolving larger combats using ship floorplans and figures/counters.

Does anyone feel it would be useful to have a similar system printed as a supplement by a third party?

I think that they changed it because it had to much of a boardgame flavor to it, which is something they wanted to avoid.

I liked it, as did my players, but we are old farts; and if one thing has changed since 1978, it is that the RPG community is in no ways still simply an offshoot and populated by conflict sim style board and miniature gamers.

Like it or not, and on the whole I think its a good thing, detailed mioniature oriented and combat detail focused systems are not the current style -and as I suspect the genre was done to death by 1990, it wouldn't be a selling point in a "reimagining" of classic traveller.

The main issue with reprinting it would be that the playtest rules are explicitly NON OGL, so asking permission would probably be needed -or a major rewrite, and since the dice mechanic is pretty unique, that would be hard to do without skirting the line, as it were. But if MGP and/or Gareth says yes, go for it !