Is anyone familiar with a formal way of calculating or estimating the manpower requirements for achieving a military objective? This seems like a critical question that determines a great deal for a mercenary outfit. I realize that this is potentially a very big subject. I consulted the Mercenary book and didn't see this addressed. It would be fun to have to recruit more men to meet an upcoming ticket, or determine how hard the ticket will be based on the number of troops to deploy, or determine how many troops you can afford to send with limited funds. There is very much a risk-management aspect to this that has potential.
Mercenary manpower requirements question
- Thread starter mattman
- Start date
It's both an easy and complicated question.
Easy because you are generally looking at 3-1 force structure (attacker needs 3x the forces the defender has) for a regular assault to have fewer casualties. You can also reverse that formula and say every defender is worth 3 attackers. That's just a casual observation based on battles that have been done previously.
Now, it's hard because there are variables. Some you can take into account (fortifications, tech, dug-in, etc). Others are much harder to quantify (leadership, fanaticism, etc).
In Traveller TL is going to be a huge potential issue. A fire team equipped to TL-12 or 13 is going to next to impossible for a TL6 or less to hurt, let along stop. The issue then is going to be just how much space can a TL-13 fire team control? Remember that being able to smash the forces in front of you is FAR different than being able to control it. And eventually those troopers are going to take off their armor, get out of their vehicles, take a dump, etc. where they are vulnerable to TL1 weapons, poisons, treacheries... you get the idea.
Fortifications also scale with TL. But keep in mind a TL0 rammed dirt wall 2 meters thick is going to stop that cool TL-12 gauss rifle. Or that TL6 airburst artillery shell may not be able to penetrate the armor of TL10 APC, but it sure as hell will shred any non-armored person, or equipment, outside of it. So defenders, assuming they know how to present defenses to these guys, will be able to defend against a lot of higher-level tech. At least to an extent. Maybe that TL6 Bazooka can't penetrate the armor on the the TL9 MBT... but it's powerful enough to blow up the tracks and make it a fixed fortification. But all the dirt in the world won't help you against a meson hit.
Leadership and fanaticism and their ilk are much harder to quantify. If your enemy is willing to sacrifice 10, or 100 men to kill one of yours (and they have the bodies to do it) then the'll swarm you until you run out of ammo, they run out of fanatics, or you are dead. And a smart leader may only have a few people, but a few people used well are worth 10x their numbers (or more).
Without knowing more about what you are looking for, I would say that your mercs would apply leadership and tech to offset their smaller numbers. They are mercs - they are paid to fight.. NOT to die. That's what soldiers are for. Mercs fight for money. And if they die, they don't get paid. And if they win, but they have run all their equipment into the ground, then they'll spend all their pay on repair/replacement, and not make much money.
Most merc tickets are going to be where they either are cadre to train the locals, or they act as high-tech fireteams that are only used sparingly, but when used properly project a much greater impact than any normal troops would. In theory at least. There can be bad mercs too, but generally you are getting men who's business it is to fight, and they can be ruthless in the pursuit of their objectives.
For historical purposes you'll have to look pretty far in the past. Today's mercs are mostly thugs with guns. There was a semi-successful merc outfit in Africa in the 70s, but you really don't see them today. Mercs were much more of an issue in the days of horses and pikes, especially in Europe. Maybe in Asia as well, but I'm not that well-versed on their military history. I'm not sure I would count the Japanese equivalent, though perhaps they too would be a good example.
Another way to look at this is to find a historical battle you like and then do research on it. And move that battle forward into your current time frame and tech level.
Easy because you are generally looking at 3-1 force structure (attacker needs 3x the forces the defender has) for a regular assault to have fewer casualties. You can also reverse that formula and say every defender is worth 3 attackers. That's just a casual observation based on battles that have been done previously.
Now, it's hard because there are variables. Some you can take into account (fortifications, tech, dug-in, etc). Others are much harder to quantify (leadership, fanaticism, etc).
In Traveller TL is going to be a huge potential issue. A fire team equipped to TL-12 or 13 is going to next to impossible for a TL6 or less to hurt, let along stop. The issue then is going to be just how much space can a TL-13 fire team control? Remember that being able to smash the forces in front of you is FAR different than being able to control it. And eventually those troopers are going to take off their armor, get out of their vehicles, take a dump, etc. where they are vulnerable to TL1 weapons, poisons, treacheries... you get the idea.
Fortifications also scale with TL. But keep in mind a TL0 rammed dirt wall 2 meters thick is going to stop that cool TL-12 gauss rifle. Or that TL6 airburst artillery shell may not be able to penetrate the armor of TL10 APC, but it sure as hell will shred any non-armored person, or equipment, outside of it. So defenders, assuming they know how to present defenses to these guys, will be able to defend against a lot of higher-level tech. At least to an extent. Maybe that TL6 Bazooka can't penetrate the armor on the the TL9 MBT... but it's powerful enough to blow up the tracks and make it a fixed fortification. But all the dirt in the world won't help you against a meson hit.
Leadership and fanaticism and their ilk are much harder to quantify. If your enemy is willing to sacrifice 10, or 100 men to kill one of yours (and they have the bodies to do it) then the'll swarm you until you run out of ammo, they run out of fanatics, or you are dead. And a smart leader may only have a few people, but a few people used well are worth 10x their numbers (or more).
Without knowing more about what you are looking for, I would say that your mercs would apply leadership and tech to offset their smaller numbers. They are mercs - they are paid to fight.. NOT to die. That's what soldiers are for. Mercs fight for money. And if they die, they don't get paid. And if they win, but they have run all their equipment into the ground, then they'll spend all their pay on repair/replacement, and not make much money.
Most merc tickets are going to be where they either are cadre to train the locals, or they act as high-tech fireteams that are only used sparingly, but when used properly project a much greater impact than any normal troops would. In theory at least. There can be bad mercs too, but generally you are getting men who's business it is to fight, and they can be ruthless in the pursuit of their objectives.
For historical purposes you'll have to look pretty far in the past. Today's mercs are mostly thugs with guns. There was a semi-successful merc outfit in Africa in the 70s, but you really don't see them today. Mercs were much more of an issue in the days of horses and pikes, especially in Europe. Maybe in Asia as well, but I'm not that well-versed on their military history. I'm not sure I would count the Japanese equivalent, though perhaps they too would be a good example.
Another way to look at this is to find a historical battle you like and then do research on it. And move that battle forward into your current time frame and tech level.
Thanks both of you.
You're right. The more I think about it, it does seem more art than science. I wouldn't mind asking someone from a war college about it though to give the game that extra dimension. Every industry has its own proprietary or standard way of estimating the size of a project which makes me wonder what the military theory is for estimating the fresh meat requirement. Maybe I should ask Sun Tzu :lol:
The reason I ask is because the ticket generation goes into a lot of detail, including the pay out, the target type, etc. This naturally got me to wondering how manpower requirements can be included into the mechanic. I suppose the pay out is a rough indicator.
You're right. The more I think about it, it does seem more art than science. I wouldn't mind asking someone from a war college about it though to give the game that extra dimension. Every industry has its own proprietary or standard way of estimating the size of a project which makes me wonder what the military theory is for estimating the fresh meat requirement. Maybe I should ask Sun Tzu :lol:
The reason I ask is because the ticket generation goes into a lot of detail, including the pay out, the target type, etc. This naturally got me to wondering how manpower requirements can be included into the mechanic. I suppose the pay out is a rough indicator.
[/quote]
I do military history at University (going into third year) if that helps 
It's not war college, but it's going to be a professional qualification.
You're going to want to use multipliers on the payout once you get too big forces. Those payouts are perfect for maybe a company at the very most, but that's pushing it and they'll have to be taking only the best paying jobs.
It's not war college, but it's going to be a professional qualification.You're going to want to use multipliers on the payout once you get too big forces. Those payouts are perfect for maybe a company at the very most, but that's pushing it and they'll have to be taking only the best paying jobs.
Liam Devlin
Mongoose
Mssr Mattman:
SPICA Publishing SP1001 'Field Manual' found here:
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=88651
sincerely,
Daniel W. Hammersley,
co-author
SPICA Publishing SP1001 'Field Manual' found here:
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=88651
sincerely,
Daniel W. Hammersley,
co-author
Does that actually answer his question, or are you just plugging your book again? Because the chapter break down doesn't include anything that indicates an answer to his question...
Also, this has been bugging me. You realise that Mssr is not a contraction of Mister, right? And messrs is a plural.
Also, this has been bugging me. You realise that Mssr is not a contraction of Mister, right? And messrs is a plural.
Liam Devlin
Mongoose
barnest2 said:
Mister Barnest,
Thank you for the correction on Mssr! I DID not realize it.
If you are asking me if there is a mechanic in the book that answers Mr. Mattman's question per-se, involving a mathematical formulae, then NO.
Our Book (if I may correct you, Mr Barnest, as I am only a co-author) shows How to run a mercenary company, how it thinks, operates and survives--and that is, it is run as a business, and success at a ticket is the goal for survival. Therefore, the mechanic for success is fluid to the ticket, or contract demanded of the unit.
And yes, I was also plugging our book...which supports MgT's Mercenary, & Mongoose Traveller, by the way :wink:
I wasn't asking if there was a mechanic. I think something like that is near impossible, without factoring in a huge number of variables.
Do you have modifiers for payments? because those really need some work for larger units.
Please don't plug the book so much. It's degrading.
Do you have modifiers for payments? because those really need some work for larger units.
Please don't plug the book so much. It's degrading.
It is possible on a micromanagement level during the planning of a spe-mattman said:
cific limited operation, by deciding what exactly will have to be done to
achieve that operation's objective and who is assigned to do it. Beyond
such concrete detailed planning for specific operations, on the more ab-
stract and general level, it is more experience and guesswork than cal-
culation, because the enemy rarely cooperates well enough and provi-
des all the informations required for a more formal approach.
The old Prussians probably were the ones most in love with a "scientific"
preparation of military operations and with serious attempts to turn both
strategy and tactics into almost "mathematical" skills. Their methods wor-
ked sometimes surprisingly well, and failed sometimes miserably. In the
end even their best commanders were those who had a lot of experience
and were willing to trust their "gut feelings" about a situation more than
what they had learned at officers' schools.
Liam Devlin
Mongoose
barnest2 said:
The ticket varies, as I replied Mister Barnest.
Who writes the ticket's parameters? The GM to the players.
How big a unit are we speaking of? An Army? or an Army Corps? a Division? A Brigade? A Regiment? A Battalion, a Company, a Platoon? A Squad? a Fireteam?
The answer breaks down to the manpower needed for the job. Our book does NOT give the players Armies for hire..
How much is a freindly foreign nation and its resources worth? What is an intact Planet with starport, and decent technology not destroyed by collateral damage worth? Who is the patron, how deep are their pockets?
We give examples of units out/ up to brigade size, because Imperial planet-based mercenaries don't allow Armies for hire. Ducal Huscarle forces come closest to that definition, but are tied to a specific Noble, and planet.
Upkeep of a large unit is costly--the larger, the more costs. Once you figure out your overhead via Book 3:Mercenary, you should be able to fgure out what you can negotiate for say 30days in the field, 60, 90 days, 120days, and so on, plus transport to and from the objective, as well as insurance and repatriation clauses.
These are things a Mercenary leader/ player must learn to gather & be ready to role-play out vs the GM. The GM should likewise be familiar with Mercenary for the expenses of the outfit his players are running, and be able to write "tickets"/ job contracts for his/her players, suitable for the size of the unit they have.
Base monthly cost of your unit x 4 for your 30day price for action, or per mission price for a ticket lasting less than 30days is a good starting point. (That's 4 months worth of credits of the unit's peacetime/ training upkeep by the way, or 3 months plus recruiting money for 30days, etc).
+ transportation to and from the objective is negotiable if the unit doesn't own a starship! The good and longer lived units do, by the way
There's one sure thing though, there's a lot math and paperwork involved between game-time, just as much as running a small merchant starship campaign has.
Once you figure out the daily cost of a unit (no matter the size), x 30days.
That's your monthly baseline of minimum expenses. If your mission goes beyond 30days of field action, price yourself well, and negotiate with the GM/Patron closely.
Whatever you don't sign for in the ticket, you won't have. It will be your fault Merc leader!
Liam Devlin
Mongoose
barnest2 said:
I would apologize, but as a professional writer (one who gets paid $$$ to write, as I define it), it is also a self-imposed duty to plug my work, therefore I cannot. It may seem a mercenary thing to say, but I do not write for free. What you see as immodest, my self-degradation, I see as honest self-promotion, and pride in my work--therefore, Mr. Barnest, we disagree.
I am sorry to have caused this feeling in you. It was not by design or intent on my part.
Good day Mister Barnest.
sincerely,
Daniel W Hammersley
US Army Infantry (Retired)
& Author, Co-Author, & Contributing Author for Mongoose-Traveller, TNE-1201, TNE-1248.
Liam Devlin said:barnest2 said:
The ticket varies, as I replied Mister Barnest.
Who writes the ticket's parameters? The GM to the players.
How big a unit are we speaking of? An Army? or an Army Corps? a Division? A Brigade? A Regiment? A Battalion, a Company, a Platoon? A Squad? a Fireteam?
The answer breaks down to the manpower needed for the job. Our book does NOT give the players Armies for hire..
How much is a freindly foreign nation and its resources worth? What is an intact Planet with starport, and decent technology not destroyed by collateral damage worth? Who is the patron, how deep are their pockets?
We give examples of units out/ up to brigade size, because Imperial planet-based mercenaries don't allow Armies for hire. Ducal Huscarle forces come closest to that definition, but are tied to a specific Noble, and planet.
Upkeep of a large unit is costly--the larger, the more costs. Once you figure out your overhead via Book 3:Mercenary, you should be able to fgure out what you can negotiate for say 30days in the field, 60, 90 days, 120days, and so on, plus transport to and from the objective, as well as insurance and repatriation clauses.
These are things a Mercenary leader/ player must learn to gather & be ready to role-play out vs the GM. The GM should likewise be familiar with Mercenary for the expenses of the outfit his players are running, and be able to write "tickets"/ job contracts for his/her players, suitable for the size of the unit they have.
Base monthly cost of your unit x 4 for your 30day price for action, or per mission price for a ticket lasting less than 30days is a good starting point. (That's 4 months worth of credits of the unit's peacetime/ training upkeep by the way, or 3 months plus recruiting money for 30days, etc).
+ transportation to and from the objective is negotiable if the unit doesn't own a starship! The good and longer lived units do, by the way
There's one sure thing though, there's a lot math and paperwork involved between game-time, just as much as running a small merchant starship campaign has.
Once you figure out the daily cost of a unit (no matter the size), x 30days.
That's your monthly baseline of minimum expenses. If your mission goes beyond 30days of field action, price yourself well, and negotiate with the GM/Patron closely.
Whatever you don't sign for in the ticket, you won't have. It will be your fault Merc leader!
All good points. And don't forget little clauses like who pays for ammuntion, food, fuel, barracks, security, spares, etc. Are there bonuses for objectices captured (perhaps intact, perhaps not...)? What are the rules related to capture of say other fellow merc's? Typcially a merc who surrenders would be ransomed back to his unit, along with his gear.
Most merc's are gonna have a gentleman's agreement with the other. We'll shoot and try to kill ya all day long, but if you surrender to me I'll treat you fairly and sell you and your gear back. That's what I would want to do as a merc. Surrendering to soldiers might be a bad idea, not to mention fatal.
If you haven't read Hammer's Slammers, or Pournelle's Falkenberg's Legion series, I would highly reccomend them to you. Aside from being really good books, they would fit very well into what you are looking for. And if you are having a naval aspect to this, check out Piper's Space Vikings (it's free on Project Guttenberg). It's mostly naval, but covers how mercs who raid get investors and how they expect payback...
"Easy because you are generally looking at 3-1 force structure (attacker needs 3x the forces the defender has) for a regular assault to have fewer casualties. You can also reverse that formula and say every defender is worth 3 attackers. That's just a casual observation based on battles that have been done previously.
Now, it's hard because there are variables. Some you can take into account (fortifications, tech, dug-in, etc). Others are much harder to quantify (leadership, fanaticism, etc)."
Spot on. I use 3-1. Some of the guys I have worked with love the different variables. They make my head hurt. I've never used them in any operation I've planned; 3-1 has always been sufficient. You could try googling 'Army force ratios for planning purposes', or something along those lines. Somewhere out there, a manual exists that has all of the variables for different types of units in it.
Whitt
Now, it's hard because there are variables. Some you can take into account (fortifications, tech, dug-in, etc). Others are much harder to quantify (leadership, fanaticism, etc)."
Spot on. I use 3-1. Some of the guys I have worked with love the different variables. They make my head hurt. I've never used them in any operation I've planned; 3-1 has always been sufficient. You could try googling 'Army force ratios for planning purposes', or something along those lines. Somewhere out there, a manual exists that has all of the variables for different types of units in it.
Whitt
WhittD said:
I'd actually look more for Isreali stuff. They have been going at it for a while.. much longer than modern US forces. Though reality bites them in the ass like it does the US for planning and, well, arrogance really. Sometimes it seems they need their asses kicked to get back to being really good at what they do.
Liam Devlin
Mongoose
phavoc said:
Indeed, professional soldiers in the Traveller 'Verse know one another by repute, and sometimes in-person. Large scale ops means one might have former rival units from the past now as allies...it pays to know who you're working with, for, and against--indeed! excellent point!
We do indeed cite these sources of Fiction in the above mentioned publication, my co-author & I, yes. Quite useful for tickets, and "what to dos" when the ticket and mission go pear-shaped!
Thank you Mr. phavoc,
sincerely,
Daniel W Hammersley
US Army Infantry (Retired)
etc, etc, and so forth
Rick
Mongoose
The 3-1 ratio is a good rule of thumb in a straight-up fight where you want to defeat an enemy force by bringing superior force to bear at the point of impact. Against a dug-in defender or one with static defences, you'd need to double or triple that. Also - don't forget the key phrase is 'at the point of impact'. You could have equal forces facing each other, but if one force can manoevre and bring superior forces to bear against key areas, then it will defeat the enemy force in detail.
Also don't underestimate the value of surprise - surprise is what you create within an enemy commanders mind that will lead to his hesitation or misdirection of his forces.
I've forgotten who said this (might have been Patton), but it's good - Victory goes to the side that screws up next to last!
Also don't underestimate the value of surprise - surprise is what you create within an enemy commanders mind that will lead to his hesitation or misdirection of his forces.
I've forgotten who said this (might have been Patton), but it's good - Victory goes to the side that screws up next to last!
