Martial Arts

[Utgardloki]

In a few threads, there have been some ideas on how to implement rules on the Martial Arts in Runequest. But for my own campaign I'd like to organize these ideas and perhaps refine some of them.

The first idea is to consider Martial Arts to be a specialization of Unarmed Attacks. The way specialization works in my evolving RQ-Modern system is that two skills can be added together when both skills apply.

Another idea is to, instead of having separate damage values for Martial Arts and Unarmed Attack, would be to allow Martial Arts skill to let the user do more basic damage. Artqx (sorry for massacring the spelling here) suggested dividing the character's Martial Arts skill by 5, and adding to the sum of Strength and Size to determine base damage when using Martial Arts.

The above two ideas play into an idea for an advantage I could make: Martial Arts Weapon. In RQ-Modern, advantages are bought with hero points, and grant some edge or ability to the character. (They're like legendary abilities, but don't require legendary prerequisites.) For perhaps 3 Hero Points, a character could learn to use Martial Arts techniques with a given weapon, gaining the advantages of increased damage and chance to hit or parry.

A character's Martial Arts skill can be used to make a Martial Arts maneuver, such as a leaping kick to hit a foe on the opposite side of a campfire. (Don't fumble that roll :shock: )

I'm interested in any other ideas, or thoughts that I am crazy or something.

 

[AKAramis]

I've been thinking about a counter approach, borrowed from RoleMaster.

Martial Arts gets broken in to a number of skills, each numbered.

MA I has is the standard "Martial Arts"
MA II ups all damage dice by one type
MA III ups all damage dice by two types
MA IV ups all damage dice by 3 types

MA II is limited to not being used at any level higher than MA I; III is limited to II, IV to III, etc.

Mind you, the skill CAN go above, but you simply don't get to use it. (Modeled after the Ride skill.)

 

[atgxtg]

Some ideas:

Styles- If you are going to get that deep into martial arts for the game, you might want to work up different martial arts systles with each having sightly different benefits and advantages available. For instance a "hard" martial art might get better bonuses to attacks and damage, while a "soft" martial art might get better grappling and throw rules.

Katas-You could work up some nice combination mauenvers that work like a "flurry" but with some sort of beneift or maybe a reduced penalty. For example a JUdo kata where you could do a combination of a throw and a hold. Come to think of it, if you are only going to allow martial arts "abilities", you could use the term Kata to make them distince from Legendary Abilities.

Prereqs-Each "ability" should have some sort of minimum requirements before it can be bought. These shouldn't be "legendary" , but make sense for the ability in question. For example a flying kick, should have a minimum requirement in Martial Arts skill and in Athletics. You might even scale the benefits by the skill rating.

Ki Powers- You could do up abilites for some of the more mystical abilties. THese might just be a form of legendary ability but with martial arts requirments, or they could also be a new form of magic and be powered by magic points. GOod if you want to do Ninja using Shinobi-Mikkyo.


Skill/5 Base Damage- It is my idea, but I'm a bit suspcious of it. THe higher base is nice, but adding in the normal STR+SIZ db might make this a bit much too soon. Try checking out a few STR+SIZ and skill combos and see if this isn't a little high? A guy with STR 15, SIZ 15 and a Martial Arts of 100% will be 1D12+1D2, significantly better than a sword.

Okay if you like that. It might leave the players looking for advanced skills to boost thier sword and spear abilties.

 

[Utgardloki]

I like a lot of your ideas.

Styles: What I'd like to do is perhaps make specialized skills and abilities, and then a martial arts style would be a school that teaches a particular set or emphasis on these. Perhaps there should be Martial Arts Striking, Martial Arts Blocking, and Martial Arts Parrying, instead of just one Martial Arts skill. This makes a character who truly masters the martial arts special.

Katas: I like the term Katas. I've already come up with the term "Advantages" for edges that have no prerequisites. I've also been thinking that in general there should be "Expert Abilities" which are lesser to Legendary Abilities, representing true expertise. Katas sound be like Martial Arts Expert Abilities.

Martial arts mysticism is a fascinating concept. I already have listed ten types of magic for my campaign, so maybe I won't make it an eleventh, especially since I've already listed a Chi form of magic which represents channelling one's inner energies. Perhaps there could be some spells which require both Chi and Martial Arts to pull off.

Damage: My original concept was using martial arts skill to improve damage. 1D12 + 1D2 does not sound too bad for someone who has invested 100 skill points in Martial Arts (or Martial Arts Strike, if I divide the skill into three components). Perhaps some means can be found to allow the sword guys to compete.

I think each weapon should have potential to be developed in its own way, by someone willing to invest in becoming a master. That logic suggests that a Martial Artist who wants the damage bonus would have to buy a Hard Strike advantage.

 

[simonh]

Please ignore this if it doesn't suit you're take on MA, but here's my rant against enhancing the MA skill.

There seems to be this idea that in the far east there is a special set of techniques that only apply to unarmed combat, which make it much more effective compared to any other (beweaponed) combat style. RQ's MA skill only applies to unarmed combat, because Martial Arts are something special that requires that you don't have any weapons.

Bullshit.

Go and watch "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon", "Hero", "House of Flying Daggers" or pretty much any film by Akira Kurosawa. Yes, unarmed characters are very effective, but they are hugely more effective when they are armed, and in fact the first thing they usualy try to do in a fight is get hold of a weapon as quickly as possible. In CTHD look at the night time scene when Jen steals the Green Destiny. She is challenged by the night porter, armed with a flail. Ok, she's unarmed and beats him up, but it takes time. He has a realy good go at her, and definitely slows her down. Imagine if either she'd been armed, or he hadn't - she'd have walked through him without breaking step. Being armed gave him a chance and gave even her - a superlative fighter - a bit of bother.

The idea that martial arts is a special technique that only applies to unarmed combat is IMHO a bit daft. Yes there are many unarmed combat systems such as Karate and Aikido that are martial arts systems, but these are almost entirely aimed at fighting other unarmed opponents and only the most extremely skilled and experienced practisioners are able to take on relatively unskilled armed opponents. I'm well aware that karate was invented to try and make unarmed peasants able to fight armed enemies, but the fact is an unarmed opponent is always going to be more formidable if you put a suitable weapon in their hand.

Overall I actualy think the Martial Arts system in MRQ works ok. It's not excessive or unballancing, and it makes unarmed combat a bit more interesting and skilled unarmed combat practicioners a bit less crap which is all to the good. However modding it to make unarmed super-characters that don't know one end of a sword from the other realy is a bit daft IMHO. After all, if MA knowledge can boost unarmed combat damage even more (e.g. by boosting the damage bonus) why can't similar advanced techniques be used by armed characters?

I think the heroic abilities system is a very apropriate way to introduce wire-fu abilities that aren't strictly and artificialy limited to unarmed combattants, and that there is no justification in real life or in oriental fantasy to try to make unarmed combat better or more effective, or even directly comparable to armed combat.

Sorry about the long rambling rant, like said it's just my way of looking at this. Feel free to welly in with counter oppinions.

Simon Hibbs

 

[Exubae]

But What about 'Quack Fu' and the Thumbless Hand Technique (Morocanth unarmed butt kicking) surely they deserve something to differenciate them from the run of the mill martial arts


Cheers
Paul

 

[Lorgryt]

I have been playing with a different approach to all of this, Martial Arts abilities that use the Hero Point system to purchase and the Martial Arts Skill to use. Like “Fist of Stone,” gives the character increased damage for unarmed attacks. Or “Lighting Cut,” allows a second strike at half skill with a weapon.

Using several great Martial Arts games and supplements from other games I am cobbling together a “Chop-socky” set of abilities, styles, and rules... yes... there is Quack Fu. :wink: Who doesn’t love seeing a Storm Bull chucked out of a pub by a 3 foot tall duck?

 

[Eisho]

I think it depends on the feel of your campaign.

If you are taking an unrealistic Zorro-type cinematic approach to combat then you probably don't need to do much with the rules as already written.

If you are running a campaign where competing schools of matial arts are prominent and want to colour and reinforce the differences, then I think there is a lot to be done to expand the rules and cover different styles.

If you want a realistic approach then martial arts are vital as a secondary skill to weapon skill. I don't really think the rules cover this at the moment however. I'm inclined more towards this approach at the moment and am playing with the idea of alternative combat rules and tables for when both the attacker and defender fail their checks. To me this represents the moment when the combatants become entangled (and / or their weapons do) and the range shifts to close combat where the primary weapon cannot be used in the normal manner.

The comments posted by simonh are accurate. Weapon first, unarmed second. Both karate and aikido (and other arts, Eastern and Western) have grown from the unarmed techniques employed by weapon wielding fighters.

For anyone that is interested I should clarify though that the farmers and fishermen on Okinawa were actually more likely to use an implement to hand (a trident, rice flail, or somesuch) if they were ever attacked by a samurai. Even then odds were they would lose. Research in the last 10-15 years indicates that karate in fact contains a lot of 'hidden' grappling techniques (which would have been used in close combat when weapons became useless) along with strikes to various pressure points (used against unarmed and probably untrained and unsuspecting opponents). Waht most people think of as 'karate' (e.g. punching and kicking) is the type taught to school children on Okinawa as a form of physical education. This was exported to universities on mainland Japan who received more of the same. In the post-WWII years the same 'children's karate' was taught to US servicemen and eventually became popular around the world.

Cheers,

Eisho

 

[Utgardloki]

Overall I actualy think the Martial Arts system in MRQ works ok. It's not excessive or unballancing, and it makes unarmed combat a bit more interesting and skilled unarmed combat practicioners a bit less crap which is all to the good. However modding it to make unarmed super-characters that don't know one end of a sword from the other realy is a bit daft IMHO. After all, if MA knowledge can boost unarmed combat damage even more (e.g. by boosting the damage bonus) why can't similar advanced techniques be used by armed characters?

My idea is that there are MA techniques that can be used by armed characters. For probably about 6 hero points investment, I'll be offering a Martial Arts Weapon advantage that allows one to use one's Martial Arts skills with a chosen weapon. That seems to be pretty cheap.

And perhaps the MA boost to damage should be MA skill divided by 10, instead of MA skill divided by 5.

There are game balance reasons for putting unarmed combat on par with armed combat. But a character should have to choose to walk that path, similar to the was a D&D Monk chooses the monk's path instead of the fighter's path.

 

[Lorgryt]

And perhaps the MA boost to damage should be MA skill divided by 10, instead of MA skill divided by 5.

I agree with you there... I was just thinking about a character I had some time ago, Dark Troll. +2D6 Damage Bonus, Martial Arts 112% (Dark Fist of Lead school... Shadow Lands). That would place his kick at 3D6+22 if it were skill/5! 3D6+11 is still heavy, but it makes more sense... it is more balanced, more in line with his Great Axe of 5D6. (I know... Gack! But he was a Rune Lord).

 

[Utgardloki]

Actually, my rule was that the MA boost gets added to the characters STR + SIZ sum to determine his damage bonus. So with the MA/5 rule, your Dark Troll would have something like 5D6 for a kick, depending on his exact STR and SIZ. With the MA/10 rule, he'd only get 2D10 or maybe 2D12 plus the base damage of his kick.

 

[atgxtg]

And perhaps the MA boost to damage should be MA skill divided by 10, instead of MA skill divided by 5.

I agree with you there... I was just thinking about a character I had some time ago, Dark Troll. +2D6 Damage Bonus, Martial Arts 112% (Dark Fist of Lead school... Shadow Lands). That would place his kick at 3D6+22 if it were skill/5! 3D6+11 is still heavy, but it makes more sense... it is more balanced, more in line with his Great Axe of 5D6. (I know... Gack! But he was a Rune Lord).

Well the way the idea worked was to add the skill mod in with the STR+SIZ mod. SO if your troll has STR 21, SIZ 20 for a +2d6 DB in RQ3. It would work as follows:

MRQ Db for 41= +1D8
Martial Arts 112%/5=+22 for a STR+SIZ mod of 63= +2D6 damage bonus.


Not much difference for Troll boy, as he is big and strong enough to hit the 10 point brackets instead of the 5 point brackets.
With a /10 rule this would be +11 for a 51 and +1D12

THe end result is that his 112% skill was worth another 3 points or so of damage, not 22.

 

[Utgardloki]

atgxtg is right. I posted my last message from work, so I didn't have the books in front of me. I just assumed the damage tables progressed like the D&D damage tables, and that the earlier version of RQ had about the same base as the current version. I guess at least one of my assumptions was wrong.

 

[Lorgryt]

Actually, my rule was that the MA boost gets added to the characters STR + SIZ sum to determine his damage bonus. So with the MA/5 rule, your Dark Troll would have something like 5D6 for a kick, depending on his exact STR and SIZ. With the MA/10 rule, he'd only get 2D10 or maybe 2D12 plus the base damage of his kick.

Duh... my bad... got caught up in the moment. You are right.

 

[atgxtg]

Of course, the downside of all this is escalation. Either we pass this on to other combat forms or MA becomes a super ability.

There is nothing to stop pople from adding Sword/5 to damage either.


And then there is the prbolem on the other end, defense. If we start to boost the damages, then we need to boost the amount of damage than can be parried/blocked. Otherwise master combatnats won't be able to defend themselves from each other. 3AP of blocking isn't worth much when you agre taking 1D3+2D6

Block APs would need to increase at the same rate as damage to maintain parity. As the db table isn't uniform, it makes thing a little tougher.

How high you want things to scale out makes a difference too. If you are'nt going to see skill scores in the hundreds, then the differences are minnimal, if you want to run chanbarra characters with 500% skills, we need to make sure the math scales for attack & defense.

It makes things more complex. THat is fine if you don't mind the complexity. But it will snowball a bit and require a few other mods to make it all work.

For instance, once you open the doors for weapon baded arts, Iaijutsu will require adjustments to the neat "Harnish" intitative system (is is an advanced initiative skill?) you got going in another thread. .

 

[Rurik]

Just to stir things up:

Isn't the damage bonus with martial arts largely based on an understanding of the human anatomy and key strike points?

Wouldn't that make it less effective against non human creatures, unless you had a similar understanding of thier anatomy?

 

[atgxtg]

Just to stir things up:

Isn't the damage bonus with martial arts largely based on an understanding of the human anatomy and key strike points?

Wouldn't that make it less effective against non human creatures, unless you had a similar understanding of thier anatomy?

It's a good hypothosis, but no. In MRQ there is no reasobnn given for the damage increase other than it is part of the advanced skill.

In RQ3 the increase was attrbutes as due to a discipline of the mind. Basically focused will rather than knowledge of anatomy.

 

[Rurik]

Knowing where to place your strikes is a big part of MA in real life. Otherwise I just don't see a bare hand ever being as lethal as a really big axe.

 

[atgxtg]

Knowing where to place your strikes is a big part of MA in real life. Otherwise I just don't see a bare hand ever being as lethal as a really big axe.

True, but along the same lines, anywhere that they can hit with you hand for more damage would probably be just as vulneerable to an axe or spear point. So the mod really should be universal.

The old Wounding skill in Timelords was based on anatomical knowledge (where to stick them). It would be fairly easy to covert into MRQ, too.

IN MRQ terms, it would require a precise attack to a specific location, and inflict 1/10th skill wounding (the critical chance) to the weapon damage, but is capped at double the max damage of the weapon. So you could only get an addtional 5 points of damage to a dagger (d4+1=5).

Each weapon skill requires it's own score , like Wounding (Dagger), and Wounding would be an advanced skill based on INT.

 

[Utgardloki]

So I turn on the TV set, and I'm watching this cartoon in which Jackie Chan is dodging everything in sight, and I'm thinking "How can you do that in Runequest?"

In Runequest, you need to use a reaction to dodge, and once you run out of reactions, you can't dodge any more. This doesn't model the cartoon I'm watching. Perhaps there should be a legendary ability which allows the character to dodge as many attacks as he takes.

This should be a hard one to get, perhaps costing 15 hero points, requiring 90% in Dodge, Martial Arts, and Acrobatics. A character with this ability would be very difficult to hit. There should probably be some sort of weakness or way to counter this.