Low Berth travel is for the condemned only?

[Rick]

Thank you for sharing (at some length) your gut feeling, Tom.
It was not necessarily relevant to what we were discussing, however, in which I mentioned more automation, not artificial intelligence.
Feel free to develop your home-grown system with early AI, no ftl and sleeper ships - I'd be very keen to see a setting like that, it sounds very interesting.
But it does help, if you are playing a game of football for example, not to suddenly move the goalposts around - the other team may not be as tolerant! :wink:

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Thank you for sharing (at some length) your gut feeling, Tom.
It was not necessarily relevant to what we were discussing, however, in which I mentioned more automation, not artificial intelligence.
Feel free to develop your home-grown system with early AI, no ftl and sleeper ships - I'd be very keen to see a setting like that, it sounds very interesting.
But it does help, if you are playing a game of football for example, not to suddenly move the goalposts around - the other team may not be as tolerant! :wink:

Just seems to me that low berths are a left over from a previous era, when there was no FTL, and it was just shoe horned for the purpose of providing low cost passage, but from an in game universe perspective, they weren't developed originally for low passage, they were developed originally as a means to send people to the stars, when there was no other means, so there must be a was to use then for their original purpose of use in sleeper ships.

 

[sideranautae]

Just seems to me that low berths are a left over from a previous era, when there was no FTL, and it was just shoe horned for the purpose of providing low cost passage, but from an in game universe perspective, they weren't developed originally for low passage, they were developed originally as a means to send people to the stars, when there was no other means, so there must be a was to use then for their original purpose of use in sleeper ships.

Yes, that seems more logical.

Now what is weird/interesting is that in the description of Medical Fast it says that the drug is sometimes used as a cheap replacement for Low Berths. Given that there is not the chance of croaking using Med Fast, that drug would actually replace Low Berths in the role of Low Passage. Safer and cheaper.

Market Says! <Richard Dawson's voice> Medical Fast!!

 

[Rick]

Tom - agreed, although more relevant to a discussion of alternative settings.

Sideranautae - No. Just no. Once again, you have misread the rulebook. A cryoberth is not a Low Berth and the 2 should not be used interchangeably.

Just going round and round and round and round and.......

 

[sideranautae]

Tom - agreed, although more relevant to a discussion of alternative settings.

Sideranautae - No. Just no. Once again, you have misread the rulebook. A cryoberth is not a Low Berth and the 2 should not be used interchangeably.

Just going round and round and round and round and.......

Any YOU need to pick up English as at LEAST a 4th language.

"Low Passage: A low passenger is frozen in a cryoberth and carried as cargo.
There is some danger to the passenger – a Medic check
is required upon opening the capsule, applying the passenger’s
Endurance DM to the check. If failed, the passenger does not survive.
Low passage costs includes a 10 kg baggage allowance; many
commercial cryoberth units have a built-in baggage compartment.
It is customary for the ship’s captain to contribute 10 credits from
every low passage towards a lottery in which each low passenger
randomly guesses how many will survive the trip. If the winner
is among the dead, the captain collects the prize. This lottery is
administered by the ship’s steward."


Let us know when yo have finished your EFL (English as a fourth language) classes. :roll:

p.s. - I have misread the rules on a RARE occasion or three. "Once again"? Dude, don't argue with your betters. :wink:

 

[Rick]

Low Passage Berths
Facilities for carrying passengers in cold sleep may be installed in
a ship. One low passage berth carries one low passenger, costs Cr.
50,000, and displaces one-half ton.

Cryoberth (TL 10): A cryoberth, or ‘icebox’, is a coffin-like machine
similar to the low or frozen berths used on some spacecraft. The
main difference is that a cryoberth works much faster than a low
berth, freezing and preserving its occupant almost instantly.

2 different entries, 2 different devices. Each does a similiar job, but they are not the same.
Could you, for example, confuse a meat cleaver and a scalpel?

 

[sideranautae]

2 different entries, 2 different devices. Each does a similiar job, but they are not the same.
Could you, for example, confuse a meat cleaver and a scalpel?

NOPE. REread the entry I posted until you understand the following words in context: "Low Passage: A low passenger is frozen in a cryoberth


If you dig yourself in any faster you will die as you are approaching the liquid core.

Also, you didn't comply with getting that EFL cert. :lol:

 

[Rick]

Honestly - I didn't feel it necessary to comply with the EFL cert, I just assumed it was another spelling mistake, similar to the others in your post! :lol:

I understand your argument, based on a single word in a single description of the device, but it just doesn't make sense when you compare it with the obviously contradictory description in the medical section of a similar, but very different device.

 

[sideranautae]

Honestly - I didn't feel it necessary to comply with the EFL cert, I just assumed it was another spelling mistake, similar to the others in your post! :lol:

I understand your argument, based on a single word in a single description of the device, but it just doesn't make sense when you compare it with the obviously contradictory description in the medical section of a similar, but very different device.

I think what they did was mush together terminology from a few different Trav editions. The only possible parsing would be to have TL 10 (and earlier) cryo-berths be of the type you quote (as that tag is in that description) and have TL 11+ "cryo-berths" be the passenger "Low berths".

p.s. - yes, as a native to the Isles you can forgo the "cert" :mrgreen:

p.p.s. that is, unless you speak Manx

 

[Rick]

I'm pretty certain you are correct in that - what we see in Mongoose Traveller is the Classic set plus all of the additions that have appeared in various other sources over the years; bound to be some errors still in there somewhere. It is logical to assume that the technology would have been used first as medical equipment, before being adapted to other uses later on.

p.s. - thank you for that and as a former ESL (English as a Second Language) tutor, let me know if you need any 'pointers' on your spelling! :mrgreen:

 

[sideranautae]

I'm pretty certain you are correct in that - what we see in Mongoose Traveller is the Classic set plus all of the additions that have appeared in various other sources over the years; bound to be some errors still in there somewhere. It is logical to assume that the technology would have been used first as medical equipment, before being adapted to other uses later on.

p.s. - thank you for that and as a former ESL (English as a Second Language) tutor, let me know if you need any 'pointers' on your spelling! :mrgreen:

Yes, there is one sentence in the CRB? where it says thrust plates (a la MT) then no further mention and they go on about Grav M-drives (NOT an MT drive type for ships). Hopefully the errata pjt. Don is working on will handle.

My spelling (could do UK & US spelling) used to be impeccable. I mean REALLY flawless. Never an error. Then I started using computers extensively for work ~'83. Built in spell checkers. Really destroyed that ability. However, grammatical errors are something up with I shall not put.

 

[Rick]

Yes, an extensive errata would be useful to smooth out any 'wrinkles' in the MRB.
I can also sympathise with your situation, my standard of English has declined abominably since I've been doing more work on the computer. :?

 

[Tom Kalbfus]

Just seems to me that low berths are a left over from a previous era, when there was no FTL, and it was just shoe horned for the purpose of providing low cost passage, but from an in game universe perspective, they weren't developed originally for low passage, they were developed originally as a means to send people to the stars, when there was no other means, so there must be a was to use then for their original purpose of use in sleeper ships.

Yes, that seems more logical.

Now what is weird/interesting is that in the description of Medical Fast it says that the drug is sometimes used as a cheap replacement for Low Berths. Given that there is not the chance of croaking using Med Fast, that drug would actually replace Low Berths in the role of Low Passage. Safer and cheaper.

Market Says! <Richard Dawson's voice> Medical Fast!!

There are two types of "Cold Sleep" one is a cryogenic process, the person is actually frozen, but there is another process called hibernation, where the body is simply cooled to just above freezing, in certain animals, such as bears, the metabolic process slows to a crawl, breathing slows, less oxygen and food is consumed. There is a process called medically induced hibernation, when a person has a heart attack or stroke, one procedure is to cool the patient to slow the heart beat so the heart can be operated on without too much bleeding. Getting a human into a state of hibernation is a tricky process, and if not done right, it can result in death.

The other kind is today used as a way to store the bodies of the deceased, the purpose is to preserve the body cellular structure so someday a future technology may someday revive the patient.

 

[sideranautae]

There is a process called medically induced hibernation, when a person has a heart attack or stroke, one procedure is to cool the patient to slow the heart beat so the heart can be operated on without too much bleeding. Getting a human into a state of hibernation is a tricky process, and if not done right, it can result in death.

Yes, a good friend just died a little over a month ago undergoing that after a heart attack.

 

[heron61]

Low berth travel as described in Traveller seems like it should be survivable but crappy. So, assume a minimum of Medic-2 and Int 9 or Medic-3 & no stat bonus, for a total bonus of +3, then add in extra time for another +1, and using a hand computer with medical expert software for another +1 (the 1,000 Cr version would still provide a +1 bonus, and I'm assuming any actual physican will have at least that), for a total bonus of +5, that means an Average task succeed on a 3+.

Then, you use the marginal failure rule on p. 50 of the core book. If the medic rolls a 2, that roll only fails by -1, so the passenger doesn't die, they merely come out with a bit of minor freezer burn or take a full day to recover - a 1 in 36 chance of minor injury or significant discomfort seems perfectly in keeping with how low berth travel is described.

 

[sideranautae]

Low berth travel as described in Traveller seems like it should be survivable but crappy. So, assume a minimum of Medic-2 and Int 9 or Medic-3 & no stat bonus, for a total bonus of +3, then add in extra time for another +1, and using a hand computer with medical expert software for another +1

How do you assume all this EXTREMELY expensive care without paying for it? The price listed in the rules for low passage is for the transporting ship only. Which MIGHT carry a Medic level 1; if you are lucky.

So, in FACT, as described in the rules, the death rate is extremely high. You can assume any number of house rules but you cannot assume RAW that doesn't exist.

Factually, the death rate is so high that there is a customary game played by those who engage in this form of "Russian Roulette":

It is customary for the ship’s captain to contribute 10 credits from
every low passage towards a lottery in which each low passenger
randomly guesses how many will survive the trip. If the winner
is among the dead, the captain collects the prize. This lottery is
administered by the ship’s steward.

 

[Reynard]

When crews for thousands of years have low berth lotteries and the passengers accept that, there's a good chance no high level medic and... people die. Business is about making money.

 

[heron61]

Low berth travel as described in Traveller seems like it should be survivable but crappy. So, assume a minimum of Medic-2 and Int 9 or Medic-3 & no stat bonus, for a total bonus of +3, then add in extra time for another +1, and using a hand computer with medical expert software for another +1

How do you assume all this EXTREMELY expensive care without paying for it? The price listed in the rules for low passage is for the transporting ship only. Which MIGHT carry a Medic level 1; if you are lucky.

How is this extreme expensive? Taking longer isn't much, especially since (using the only data I can find - ie MegaTraveller), low berth revival takes 1 minute, so extending this to 10 minutes is hardly a stretch.

Also, assuming that someone working as a physician or starship medic has a hand computer with a 1,000 Cr program that I'd assume any doctor would have hardly seems extravagant. Heck, from the way the rules on situational modifiers are written on p. 49, doing the revivals in a setting designed for doing so (ie with all the necessary equipment on hand and in working order) should get you a +1, so either than hand computer gives another +1 or it isn't needed.

Crappy care would be all of the above, but the medic would have medicine-2 with no bonus (remember that the standard for Traveller is that anyone working as a starship medic needs Medicine-2, which gives a 1-in-18 chance of freezer burn or other mild problems and a 1-in-36 chance of death.

Really crappy care would be all of the above, but with no hand computer and medical equipment being in poor condition, with some of it missing, so no bonus beyond the extra time and the Medicine+2 (with no Int bonus), which would give a 1-in-12 chance of freezer burn and a 1-in-12 chance of death. Of course, this means the passenger has booked passage in a barely running tramp freighter where captain is negligent, broke, or drunk a fair proportion of the time.

So, in FACT, as described in the rules, the death rate is extremely high. You can assume any number of house rules but you cannot assume RAW that doesn't exist.

Is that true in MongTrav? I know it was in CT, but later editions (MegaTraveller, and IIRC also TNE & GURPS Traveller) revised this to say that high death rates were only the case at the dawn of the Imperium and while people joked about it, this was no longer true.

In any case, even if there is only minimal risk, I've always been curious as to why more people don't just take a dose of Fast Drug. Heck, starships would save money since they don't need low berths, just a bunch of cheap packed-together bunks with a seatbelt like strap on each one to keep passengers from falling out. If a starship included Fast Drug as part of the price of low passage, they'd likely still make money vs. buying low berths (rather than just couches that take up the same amount of space and presumably cost about as much as barracks, so 10K Cr rather than 50K Cr), or for that matter needing to pay a medic.

 

[sideranautae]

Is that true in MongTrav? I know it was in CT, but later editions (MegaTraveller, and IIRC also TNE & GURPS Traveller) revised this to say that high death rates were only the case at the dawn of the Imperium and while people joked about it, this was no longer true.

According to how written in Mgt, the BEST (lots of positives mods that can't be justified really) average case would be 1 in 36 passengers die traveling via low passage.

 

[GypsyComet]

(lots of positives mods that can't be justified really)

Third time around. Maybe fourth. :roll: Have fun in your game, whatever it ends up looking like.