Long Range Archery & Hyrkanians; does it get any play?

[Conan-the-Librarian]

So the Hyrkanians are renown for their archery and in particular their long range archery accuracy?

Then why does a Shemite bow have a 1 higher AP than the Hyrkanian bow when they're just about equal in all other respects (aside from Crit ranges of x3 vs. 19-20/x2 which are d20 comparable)?

Given the fact that AP for bows decreases by 1 for EACH range increment, it would seem to me that the truly effective long range archers would want a bow with a high AP for their long shots.

Also when one considers the Hyrkanian bonuses for long range, they really don't seem that impressive. Let's assume that the Hyrkanian archer does have the Far Shot feat so he gets the +1 at 4 range increments... that means he is still shooting with a -5 penalty instead of a -6 (-2 penalty per each range increment past the 1st one). In order to get the +2 bonus he needs to be shooting at 6 range increments... again he's shooting at -8 vs. -10.

I mean that's better than nothing but it isn't anything to write home about (unlike say the Shemite ability to get +1 damage within the 1st range increment, especially as damage is hard to improve upon for bows). Of course people may bring up the fact that Hyrkanians already have a +1 to attack for all bows but then so do Shemites. Also the Bossonian gets a +1 to attack for Bossonian longbows while the Stygian gets a +1 to attack for Stygian bows.

What is more, assuming he's using a Hyrkanian Bow (again with the Far Shot feat taken). That means he has to not only shoot at but first he has to actually spot his target at either 150 ft x4= 600 ft (200 yrds) or 150 ft x6= 900ft (300 yds) to make any use of those long range bonuses. The problem is that at 4 range increments, his Hyrkanian Bow is at AP 0 (oddly enough the Shemite Bow is still at AP 1). This might not matter if he's shooting at unarmed targets but with just a Quilted Jerkin, there goes any 3 points of his 1d10 damage.

Now the question is, what if the Hyrkanian Bow has a Strength bonus? Let's say +3 and the Hyrkanian archer has a 16 Str so he can make proper use of it? Now does the Str bonus to AP apply before or AFTER the reduction of AP for bows at every range increment past the 1st? This is important because the rules state that STR can't be added to AP if the AP of the weapon is 0.

Along with this line of thought... just how many times have people actually had their PCs in a combat engagement that began at 600 ft or 900 ft or more? Unless you're out on some pretty flat terrain, or you're on top of a bare mountain shooting down, that's going to be hard to do. Even deserts have sand dunes that can be hidden behind or used for cover.

Also just how often do PCs spot "danger" out 300 or 600 or more yards off? Can PCs actually "recognize" targets out at that distance with the naked eye? Sure you can spot an army or a horde... but in that case the smart money is on getting the hell out of Dodge before they close the distance gap. Now obviously if the PCs are "shooting anything that moves" that won't be an issue but usually PCs aren't that random in their attacks... besides, arrows cost money.

So I'm just curious to see if anyone has really experienced much use in Long Distance Archery and whether the renown Hyrkanians truly did outshine their non-Hyrkanian archer counterparts at long range?

 

[Halfbat]

No Hyrkanian, but my group has developed a fighting style where their Bossonian and Stygian initially pelt opponents at long range (if they can) - sometimes quite effectively.

At shorter range, a barbarian goes in an acts as a mincing-machine/brick wall with a Pirate/Thief jumps about all over the place as a support and flank-attacker. The Bossonian (using Precise Shot/Rapid Shot/PBS/etc++) and Stygian shoot round them.

The Scholar, of course, stands back and smiles faintly....

 

[Conan-the-Librarian]

No Hyrkanian, but my group has developed a fighting style where their Bossonian and Stygian initially pelt opponents at long range (if they can) - sometimes quite effectively.

So how often are they able to ID their enemies at long range and in what sort of terrain?

Also how far out do you allow them to spot and actually accurately identify targets (ie. how many "range increments" out can the PC's see with any degree of detail)?

Are the foes they are shooting at from long range armored or unarmored? If the former, then how badly does the loss of AP at long range affect their efforts (especially when it comes to net damage dealt)?

I know the Bossonian longbow has a great AP at 5 (better than many melee weapons) but the Stygian bow has only an AP of 2 (worse than the Hyrkanian bow at AP 3). So technically at 3 range increments or more the Stygian bow's AP should have dropped to 0... do you still allow the use of Strength to add to AP (even though the rules mention that weapons with AP 0 can't add Strength to AP)?

 

[Jakusotsu]

I'm playing a Shem vs. Turan campaign, so a lot of different archery and horsemanship things have come up.

So how often are they able to ID their enemies at long range and in what sort of terrain?

Usually we're dealing with plains or rocky desert. Someone with a decent spot check will see their enemy that far out. And if you're engaged in wholesale culture-clash, you can probably identify them as an enemy just by what they're wearing.

And if you're raiding a caravan or something, you can lay an ambush and choose your own distance.

Are the foes they are shooting at from long range armored or unarmored? If the former, then how badly does the loss of AP at long range affect their efforts (especially when it comes to net damage dealt)?

Usually lightly armored, but my players (or NPCs) will often shoot at the horses, which are not so well-armored (though they've still got their DR). The armor is significant, but a few points of damage still puts you at an advantage. If you manage to kill the opposing horses, your advantage has improved considerably.

I know the Bossonian longbow has a great AP at 5 (better than many melee weapons) but the Stygian bow has only an AP of 2 (worse than the Hyrkanian bow at AP 3). So technically at 3 range increments or more the Stygian bow's AP should have dropped to 0... do you still allow the use of Strength to add to AP (even though the rules mention that weapons with AP 0 can't add Strength to AP)?

I allow the Strength to factor in before increment deduction. I don't see any reason to nerf long-ranged combat by doing otherwise. It also makes logical sense. The more powerful your bow, the more powerfully it can pierce armor. A bow with a heavy draw will pierce armor at a range better than a bow with a light draw.

 

[Conan-the-Librarian]

I'm playing a Shem vs. Turan campaign, so a lot of different archery and horsemanship things have come up.

And if you're engaged in wholesale culture-clash, you can probably identify them as an enemy just by what they're wearing.

I allow the Strength to factor in before increment deduction. I don't see any reason to nerf long-ranged combat by doing otherwise. It also makes logical sense. The more powerful your bow, the more powerfully it can pierce armor. A bow with a heavy draw will pierce armor at a range better than a bow with a light draw.

Hmm well this is interesting. I admit that if you're in a major war style campaign, then it does get easier to pick your targets out even at long range. I guess most of the scenarios I've been involved were not quite so cut & dry (usually it isn't obvious who one's foes are until they're much closer).

Seeing as you have alot of Shem vs. Turan action, have you noticed one side's archery out shining the other? For instance has the added +1 AP of the Shemite bow been a noticeable advantage (assuming equal Str bonus of course)? Do you see the Hyrkanians getting much benefit/use out of their +1/+2 bonuses for 4/6 range increments (assuming they have the Far Shot feat of course)?

I suppose another issue if how often the PCs have access to high Str bonus/draw bows? I guess in a military style campaign that might be a bit more often than in the traditional "episodic" campaign where one can find one's self fully equiped in one game and then wake up stripped of everything but a loin cloth the next game.

The idea of going for the horses is an interesting one that I hadn't considered, though the loss of "spoils" in the form of dead horses might deter some more mercenary minded players.

 

[Halfbat]

So how often are they able to ID their enemies at long range and in what sort of terrain?

Really depends on the scenario. For example, in relatively flat plains or meadows, or when looking down from a vantage point they can normally see a long way - hundreds of yards.

Also how far out do you allow them to spot and actually accurately identify targets (ie. how many "range increments" out can the PC's see with any degree of detail)?

Distance is really dependent on terrain. The characters have engaged Picts or barely armoured pirates at around 9-12 range increments, for instance, but in both cases that was because they were high up and looking _down_ on their targets over intervening terrain.

RAW Spot rules really punish you for actively _Spotting_ something (-1 per 10' which means even at a single range increment there's a -10 penalty), but there is no need to Spot everything you see. Typically the characters only use long range shooting when they are sure of their foes.

However, even at several hundred yards and more in the clear (6 range increments - the threshhold for long distance archery) most people can readily tell the type of uniform someone is wearing, and at conventional, modern archery distances (~4 range increments for a Conan longbow) details and people are easily apparent as are expressions (though lip-reading is less easy!). Even pinpointing a particular person in a crowd is not too difficult.

Are the foes they are shooting at from long range armored or unarmored? If the former, then how badly does the loss of AP at long range affect their efforts (especially when it comes to net damage dealt)?

The characters are very aware of good armour so adapt their tactics (see Pict example above). Against other targets at long range, horsemen for example, they try for horses or just hope for lucky shots, using the bows for their threat and nuisance value as they hope for the opponents to come closer. (imho If character's don't adapt their tactics to their opponents and their weapons, then ::shrug:: it's time for the unsympathetic GM to come out. :wink: :twisted: )

... do you still allow the use of Strength to add to AP (even though the rules mention that weapons with AP 0 can't add Strength to AP)?

Yes, because they _do_ have a base AP value which has subsequently heightened by a strength bonus - the fact that it is reduced due to penalties is immaterial, it is still an AP rating.

I take your point, though, that the long distance Hyrkanian shooting may be less effective than one might hope (even starting at 4-6 increments where the AP is already really low). But they are on plains and can see a fairly long way.

[Whoops, longer than I expected but I hope it answers your questions! ]

 

[quigs]

Most of my group has dismissed archery as useless in Conan, which quite frankly, it is if you're attacking anyone with decent armour. Personally I don't see this as very realistic, but there have been occasions where a mook or NPC has done some decent damage with a bow.

 

[Jakusotsu]

Hmm well this is interesting. I admit that if you're in a major war style campaign, then it does get easier to pick your targets out even at long range. I guess most of the scenarios I've been involved were not quite so cut & dry (usually it isn't obvious who one's foes are until they're much closer).

Traditional campaigns are usually like this. But traditional campaigns also miss out on a lot of interesting mechanics that I like to toy around with. My players fear going out into the desert about as much as they fear the human (or otherwise) enemies that are out there to defeat them. Fights between nomadic groups are more like raids and attempts to steal supplies than out-and-out brawls. It doesn't matter how much you can Power Attack --> Massive Damage someone with a Great Sword if they can just set your food on fire and let you die in the desert.

Seeing as you have alot of Shem vs. Turan action, have you noticed one side's archery out shining the other? For instance has the added +1 AP of the Shemite bow been a noticeable advantage (assuming equal Str bonus of course)? Do you see the Hyrkanians getting much benefit/use out of their +1/+2 bonuses for 4/6 range increments (assuming they have the Far Shot feat of course)?

I've seen both make huge differences in different situations. In fast-moving, mounted combat, the Turanians tend to do better. The Turanians will ride around, shooting the Shemites at distances the Shemites can't easily react to. If the Shemites get within 1 range increment to get their bonus, the Turanians will charge them with light lances and usually butcher some people. In foot combat, assuming both sides are relatively free to maneuver around dunes and rocks to take cover, the Shemite bonus tends to be better.

I think the Hyrkanian bows are superior, as I consider the 19-20 crit range to be a bigger bonus than the x3 crit multiplier of the Shemite bow. The extra AP doesn't factor much into the chronicle, since most fights we've encountered involve relatively light armor. Occasionally an officer will be wearing something heavier, but in general I penalize people wearing medium or heavy armor for long periods of time in the desert heat.

There have been a few encounters against heavily armored people, and in those circumstances bows become useless relatively quickly for directly attacking people. But there are still plenty of other things to shoot. The guy's horse, his friends, whatever. And if you've got a horse (or if you can run quicker because you're lightly armored), you can just come back and finish him off later. He can't stay awake forever.

The idea of going for the horses is an interesting one that I hadn't considered, though the loss of "spoils" in the form of dead horses might deter some more mercenary minded players.

Oh, yeah, horses are easy targets, and tactically very sound, especially if both combatants are relatively high level (i.e., they have difficulty killing each other in one or two hits). It makes the Mounted Combat feat pretty important. Horses can also do things like trip people in combat. The rider makes his attacks, and the horse rears up and makes a trip attack against the opponent or the opposing horse. The horse's trip provokes an AOO, but you can just Mounted Combat that into a miss if you're a decent rider.