Life Support

[F33D]

MLI is used on satellites and so on, giving them their gold colour, but as to how practical this would be in Traveller I think is open for further discussion. It would certainly reduce heat loss through radiation, perhaps by as much as half.

Look up Aerogel

I feel there is a clear need for 'some' quantity of energy to keep your stateroom warm (survivable in space) as part of life support for power loss situations. How much energy and how much dtonnage it requries as part of 'life support' compared to say water or oxygen I have not currently considered/researched, but I suspect more than most people imagine.

A PP plant in space produces SO much heat as waste that there is a problem getting rid off it. NOT producing it. So no, there is no need to produce extra heat for staterooms. It is really a physics problem. Look in that area for further understanding.

 

[mr31337]

Look up Aerogel

Everything, however insulated, will eventually radiate all heat into a space at 2.73 kelvin.

I feel there is a clear need for 'some' quantity of energy to keep your stateroom warm (survivable in space) as part of life support for power loss situations. How much energy and how much dtonnage it requries as part of 'life support' compared to say water or oxygen I have not currently considered/researched, but I suspect more than most people imagine.

A PP plant in space produces SO much heat as waste that there is a problem getting rid off it. NOT producing it. So no, there is no need to produce extra heat for staterooms. It is really a physics problem. Look in that area for further understanding.

I clearly stated power loss situations.

So, yes there is a need to produce heat in a stateroom without power.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I clearly stated power loss situations.

So, yes there is a need to produce heat in a stateroom without power.

the CRB tells us life support is good for two weeks without power and we know space is very, very cold (2.73 kelvin), where is the heat for that two weeks coming from? Or should we assume this is the time for any ambient heat to radiate into space? If you have no power I would imagine you’d die faster without heat than you would without air - in space.

Could you provide a page reference to where the 2 weeks is in the rules?

It's mostly speculation. Has anyone posted the science? How long will air in a certain volume remain breathable? How slow or quick does heat radiate out?

As long as it's less than two weeks, the batteries, capacitors or whatever unspecified tech of the life support system keeps it running for the remainder of the two weeks.

Or, if you like, the life support runs for two weeks and then stops and that is when you start bleeding off heat, get stale air slowly turning unbreathable and so on.

If you still haven't figured out how to get power back up by then it's time to deploy the emergency beacon and get into the low berths.

 

[phavoc]

I clearly stated power loss situations.

So, yes there is a need to produce heat in a stateroom without power.

the CRB tells us life support is good for two weeks without power and we know space is very, very cold (2.73 kelvin), where is the heat for that two weeks coming from? Or should we assume this is the time for any ambient heat to radiate into space? If you have no power I would imagine you’d die faster without heat than you would without air - in space.

Could you provide a page reference to where the 2 weeks is in the rules?

It's mostly speculation. Has anyone posted the science? How long will air in a certain volume remain breathable? How slow or quick does heat radiate out?

As long as it's less than two weeks, the batteries, capacitors or whatever unspecified tech of the life support system keeps it running for the remainder of the two weeks.

Or, if you like, the life support runs for two weeks and then stops and that is when you start bleeding off heat, get stale air slowly turning unbreathable and so on.

If you still haven't figured out how to get power back up by then it's time to deploy the emergency beacon and get into the low berths.

Pg 142 of the Core Rulebook states:

Suffocation
A spacecraft with power can sustain life support for one person per stateroom for one month comfortably, and for six months at a stretch (number of staterooms 5,000 person/hours). Without power, this drops to two weeks at most. Other shelters list the amount of air and life support available. The atmosphere can be ‘freshened’ by a visit to a world with a breathable atmosphere.

 

[mr31337]

Could you provide a page reference to where the 2 weeks is in the rules?

Sure, CRB p142, "...Without power this drops to two weeks at most..."
It actually says "life support" so there must be heat energy (without power) or you would die faster than without air.

It's mostly speculation. Has anyone posted the science? How long will air in a certain volume remain breathable? How slow or quick does heat radiate out?

This is exactly what I'd like to know.

 

[phavoc]

Could you provide a page reference to where the 2 weeks is in the rules?

Sure, CRB p142, "...Without power this drops to two weeks at most..."
It actually says "life support" so there must be heat energy (without power) or you would die faster than without air.

It's mostly speculation. Has anyone posted the science? How long will air in a certain volume remain breathable? How slow or quick does heat radiate out?

This is exactly what I'd like to know.

There's a bunch of variables here. Like are they assuming battery power for minimal life support? Just how well is the ship insulated? If it's super-insulated, then the passengers run the risk of generating too much heat with no way of dumping it to space. Or maybe after two weeks you run out of nuts to feed the squirrels running in the wheel that is providing emergency power generation to the life support plant. Why can't there be emergency fuel cells (they have all the materials onboard for fuel) to generate power for life support and to provide water. Most ships should have literally tons of hydrogen available (most of the time at least). Even 'dry' tanks would have some hydrogen available.

 

[F33D]

I clearly stated power loss situations.

So, yes there is a need to produce heat in a stateroom without power.

Gotcha. The calculation would be difficult due to unknowns ranging from hull surface area/volume ratio, insulation properties, radiant property of hull, etc...

 

[mr31337]

The calculation would be difficult due to unknowns ranging from hull surface area/volume ratio, insulation properties, radiant property of hull, etc...

Agreed. Looks like any greater analysis with so many variables isn't a reasonable investment of time!

 

[Condottiere]

The real test would be if in an emergency evacuation via space, how many civilians could a spaceship support and for how long.

 

[F33D]

The real test would be if in an emergency evacuation via space, how many civilians could a spaceship support and for how long.

Using Medical Fast you could easily 60X the amount of passengers. Stack them up.

 

[Condottiere]

What if you ran out of Fast?

 

[CosmicGamer]

What if you ran out of Fast?

I think discussing the possibly fun situation to play out when you do run out of fast may be interesting but whether it is Fast, life support, or the ability to squeeze in yet another person... Whatever the limitation, at some point you may have to start turning people away.

The variety of possible evacuation plans that different governments types and people might have and how well a variety of law levels could control such has a multitude of possibilities for a whole separate thread.

 

[F33D]

What if you ran out of Fast?

What if you run out of evacuees? Seriously though. Since 'Fast is going to be the single most important item (other than the ships) to enable evac, it will be stockpiled by all but the lowest IQ populations. And they should get the Darwin award anyway.

 

[Condottiere]

You never run out of evacuees.

And the ship(s) could be private vessels, not an official rescue ship.

 

[Solomani666]

.


Here is how I run life support IMTU:

A minimum of 1 stateroom needs to be activated per 2 passengers on board.
This minimum will leave the air and water rather dank but livable.
To carry passengers, all staterooms will need to be activated.

Unused staterooms that are turned off, require no maintenance,
but will require maintenance once turned on.
(AKA hermetic seals on the life support modules have been broken)

Life support includes water and fresh air, but not food.

(1). What happens if you're low on funds and can't pay this? We know what happens if you use unrefined fuel, if you skip maintenance, if you skip on debt payments - but not life support.

Roll a maintenance check for EACH stateroom after the first month of missed maintenance.
Any damage result indicates that the stateroom will no longer provide life support until its consumables are replaced.

Maintenance can be performed by the ships crew provided they have Standard Life Support Modules in stock.

(2). What are you actually buying? If you're away from civilization or visiting a class X starport or a scout ship or warship... If you loot another ship for life support, what happens to them and how do you know how much they had? Can you trade with TL 0 locals for life support for your staterooms and low berth (cr. 100) per month) or is it something you can only buy in a starport?

Bacterial/chemical modules for solid wastes.
Algae matrices/chemical modules for air.
Filters/chemical treatments/separators for water.
IMTU they are combined into a single consumable Standard Life Support Module.
(Emergency repairs to SLSM's are possible but difficult, giving the module an extra month or two of life at best.)

IMTU If you flush out each system with fresh water during the second month, you gain a +1 for each state room on the next maintenance roll.
If you replace all of the ships air each week with fresh air during the second month, you gain a +1 for each state room on the next maintenance roll.

(3). Can you stock up, and if so, how much extra tonnage per month does it require?

Some will be included in the ships spare parts inventory if it has any.
Up to the ref as to how many.
They can also be purchased individually at any D+ starport for 2000cr each.

(4). Is life support per month (MGT) or per trip (as hinted in CT)?

Per month as per the main rule book page 137

(5). In a lot of Traveller, a classic trope is finding the lost ship with the person in a low berth who has been there for months or even years. But how can this happen if you need Cr. 100 in supplies per month for a low berth? Most people won't stock that much up....

IMTU A fully charged and sealed low berth will will remain perfectly operation for years if left unused.
The maintenance cost is per use.
This includes sanitation, replacement of the chemical module, a final seal (literally) and inspection by a licensed medical/technical professional.


Note:
If the ship goes through a starport inspection, they will likely require that all of the staterooms life support modules are active and the activation timers have not expired before given the "all clear". Hermetically sealed and inspected low berths will usually be given the OK provided the seal date is no more than 6 months old. Just hope that the inspector isn't a Bwap.

.

 

[Reynard]

" Since 'Fast is going to be the single most important item (other than the ships) to enable evac, it will be stockpiled by all but the lowest IQ populations."

I don't see any rule in any of the books saying Fast or emergency low berths or any means to provide rescue other than on actual emergency vessels are mandatory. No one is obligated to have first aide kits in their 21 century vehicle just in case they arrive on the scene of an accident.

In the event of a ship becoming stranded and unpowered, the ship has some time, from hours to maybe two weeks depending on how much original life support has already been used. In that time and in civilized star systems, rescue operations such as the Recovery ship in Starports will be sent to either evacuate or refresh life support while putting the vessel in tow or a Repair ship from Merchants and Cruisers can do on the spot emergency repairs allowing the vessel to at least crawl back to port.

Maybe another benefit at mustering should be an Imperial Ship Association membership to cover such emergencies. Don't leave homeworld without it!

 

[F33D]

"
I don't see any rule in any of the books saying Fast or emergency low berths or any means to provide rescue other than on actual emergency vessels are mandatory.

What ARE you going on about now? I never said there was a game rule about it. REREAD what I DID write.

 

[Reynard]

I was replying to your declarative as to how the Traveller system should work. Point and counterpoint.

 

[F33D]

I was replying to your declarative as to how the Traveller system should work. Point and counterpoint.

No, you were showing that you couldn't comprehend the sentence that I wrote.