Leaping Charge [Rules]

sbarrie

Mongoose
Leaping Charge gives you a -2 to hit. Charge gives you a +2 to hit. Do these cancel out, or does the -2 superceed the +2?
 

Sutek

Mongoose
It says both attacks are at -2. The leaping charge is an additional attack, so the charge is at -2, cancelling the +2 you'd normally get bringing a bonus of zero, and the additional leaping charge atack is at -2.
 

sbarrie

Mongoose
Ouch. That's similar to d20 feats like Rapid Shot, but just different enough to be annoying.

Don't bonuses like Charging usually stay in effect until your initiative comes around again?

Could you perform a Leaping Charge with a lance from horseback? How would it interact with Ride-by-attack or Spirited Charge?
 

Sutek

Mongoose
Well, I'd say look it up in an AE copy to be sure. It's not one of the changes listed, but I think there's lot that isn't.

The Leaping Charge manuver states that during a charge you can also leaping charge to gain an extra attack and -2 to both attack rolls, so it seems like it's ther to cancel out the normal bonus from charging and apply a penalty to the additional attack gained. Makes sense and it's not too shabby, but you have to be about a 6th level "warrior type" character and have at least some points in the Jump skill.

As far as bonuses and penalties carrying over, there's an erroneous period in the sentance explaining that in the original printing, so I'll bet AE makes it more clear. However, it seems obvious that the intent is "yes", bonuses and penalties last until your next initiative (+2 ATT and DAM, -2 DV for a regular charge; +0/-2 ATT, +2/+2 DAM, -4 DV for a leaping charge).
 

Trodax

Mongoose
Sutek said:
It says both attacks are at -2. The leaping charge is an additional attack, so the charge is at -2, cancelling the +2 you'd normally get bringing a bonus of zero, and the additional leaping charge atack is at -2.

Yeah, thats one way to rule it. The description of Leaping Charge is very open for interpretation though (even in the AE). I'll probably say that you get the charge bonus to both attacks, so that you end up with two attacks at +0. Mostly because it's easier and I think the -4 DV is pretty harsh.

sbarrie said:
Could you perform a Leaping Charge with a lance from horseback?

Since Leaping Charge has the Jump skill as a prereq, I'd say no to that (what I mean is that Leaping Charge seems to be more of a leg-driven thing :wink: ).

Sutek said:
(+2 ATT and DAM, -2 DV for a regular charge; +0/-2 ATT, +2/+2 DAM, -4 DV for a leaping charge).

You don't get a bonus to your damage roll when charging, do you?
 

sbarrie

Mongoose
Trodax said:
sbarrie said:
Could you perform a Leaping Charge with a lance from horseback?

Since Leaping Charge has the Jump skill as a prereq, I'd say no to that (what I mean is that Leaping Charge seems to be more of a leg-driven thing :wink: ).

Ah yes. The reason I ask is that last Sunday my players tangled with some Nemedian knights who had a full complement of mounted feats. The players found that it was more effective to dismount and use Leaping Charge instead of fighting from horseback.

Even with a slightly smaller chance to hit, it still balanced the knights' Spirited Charge feat quite well. I don't want to think I cheated the knights (or any future cavalry PCs).

Did the AE increase the number of Jump ranks needed for Leaping Charge?

Trodax said:
Sutek said:
(+2 ATT and DAM, -2 DV for a regular charge; +0/-2 ATT, +2/+2 DAM, -4 DV for a leaping charge).

You don't get a bonus to your damage roll when charging, do you?

Only with a Bull's Charge, I believe. I doubt that you could combine that with a Leaping Charge.
 

Trodax

Mongoose
sbarrie said:
Did the AE increase the number of Jump ranks needed for Leaping Charge?

Nope, it still just says "Jump skill". Guess its meant to be just 1 rank, although I think 4, or maybe 6 ranks would be more appropriate.
 

Sutek

Mongoose
Trodax said:
You don't get a bonus to your damage roll when charging, do you?

Yes. +2 ATT/DMG, -2DV.

Leaping charge adds one extra attack, but both are at -2 ATT. I can see how you'd rule that it's +0/+0, but since it's worded as an "
additional attack" retroactively affecting the charge attack also, I have to see it as +0/-2. It's really not harder, unless you make it that way...:)
 

Sutek

Mongoose
Trodax said:
sbarrie said:
Did the AE increase the number of Jump ranks needed for Leaping Charge?

Nope, it still just says "Jump skill". Guess its meant to be just 1 rank, although I think 4, or maybe 6 ranks would be more appropriate.

I would too. I'd probably requireat least character level Ranks, just to keep requiring point expendature, but really jsut 1 point is sufficient. Odd that they didnt' fix that in the AE.
 

Trodax

Mongoose
Sutek said:
Yes. +2 ATT/DMG, -2DV.

I sort of remember having seen this somewhere to, but I can't find any mention of a damage-bonus on a charge in Conan (AE) or in D&D 3.5. Do you have a page reference, or could it possibly been an old D&D 3.0 thing?
 

Mayhem

Mongoose
Sutek said:
Trodax said:
You don't get a bonus to your damage roll when charging, do you?

Yes. +2 ATT/DMG, -2DV.

Are we talking about the base charge, here? Ordinary charges do NOT give you a bonus to damage, only to hit.

You do get a +2 bonus to the STR check made to bull-rush or overrun an opponent, but not a +2 to damage.

A Bull's Charge manouver gives you a +2 to damage, but at the cost of recieving an AoO.
 

sbarrie

Mongoose
Sutek said:
As far as bonuses and penalties carrying over, there's an erroneous period in the sentance explaining that in the original printing, so I'll bet AE makes it more clear. However, it seems obvious that the intent is "yes", bonuses and penalties last until your next initiative (+2 ATT and DAM, -2 DV for a regular charge; +0/-2 ATT, +2/+2 DAM, -4 DV for a leaping charge).

If bonuses and penalties carry over, why doesn't the +2 to attack while charging carry over to the second attack of a leaping charge?
 

Mayhem

Mongoose
Since the ruling is ambiguous, I'd be inclined to go for the simplest option - two attacks at a net bonus/penalty of zero.

After all, given the Damage COGL weapons do, and the relatively low DVs that characters have, that -4 to DV is quite a hefty penalty.
 

SableWyvern

Mongoose
I don't see any real ambiguity.

While one could rule that the second attack doesn't receive the bonus for charging, I really don't see why you would.

The charge rule gives you a +2 to hit. The fact that the wording (for charge) mentions only a single attack is because that is all that a charge usually allows.

In every other instance in the rules where an additional attack is gained at the highest base attack bonus, that attack uses exactly the same final bonus as the primary attack, except where explicitly stated otherwise. I don't see why Leaping Attack should be treated differently.

As to bonuses to damage on a charge, that definitely only occurs in the event of a Bull's Charge.
 

Sutek

Mongoose
sbarrie said:
If bonuses and penalties carry over, why doesn't the +2 to attack while charging carry over to the second attack of a leaping charge?

Because the +2 is for the Charge Attack and the leaping charge adds an additional attack to that Charge Attack, but at -2 to both Attack rolls - thus (+2)-2=0 for the Charge Attack and (0)-2=-2 for the additional attack added via Leaping Charge.
 

sbarrie

Mongoose
Sutek said:
sbarrie said:
If bonuses and penalties carry over, why doesn't the +2 to attack while charging carry over to the second attack of a leaping charge?

Because the +2 is for the Charge Attack and the leaping charge adds an additional attack to that Charge Attack, but at -2 to both Attack rolls - thus (+2)-2=0 for the Charge Attack and (0)-2=-2 for the additional attack added via Leaping Charge.

But the +2 attack and -2 DV for Charging last until your next initiative. Your second attack comes after the initial charge attack, so it should also be at (+2)-2=+0.

Which is the same as Rapid Shot, and all is right with the world...
 

SableWyvern

Mongoose
sbarrie said:
Sutek said:
sbarrie said:
If bonuses and penalties carry over, why doesn't the +2 to attack while charging carry over to the second attack of a leaping charge?

Because the +2 is for the Charge Attack and the leaping charge adds an additional attack to that Charge Attack, but at -2 to both Attack rolls - thus (+2)-2=0 for the Charge Attack and (0)-2=-2 for the additional attack added via Leaping Charge.

But the +2 attack and -2 DV for Charging last until your next initiative. Your second attack comes after the initial charge attack, so it should also be at (+2)-2=+0.

Which is the same as Rapid Shot, and all is right with the world...

Another way of looking at it (with the same result) is that there is no such thing as a "charge attack", just an attack carried out as part of a charge action. Leaping Charge simply provides you with two attacks during a charge action.
 

AZZA

Mongoose
Personally I think this is WAY too powerful a maneuver. What would people in your group say if you added a feat.

Extra Blow
Prerequiste: Base attack +6, jump skill
Benefit. As long as you move 10' in a round you may make a second attack at your highest attack bonus. You may move up to double your movement and use this ability as long as it is in a straight line. You are at -4DV

Would any DM agree to that? It's basically the same thing but would cost a feat.
How about in the surprise round. Partial charge anyone? With most characters parry and dodge defense being a big 10 when flat footed letting a character charge and get two attacks is devastating. Finesse attack coupled with sneak attack? How about power attack and bardiche? The difference in Conan OGL defense and Standard D20 is so extreme that I was considering making the 1st round in all combats only partial rounds to cut down on 1st round instant kill.
Just my opinion.
 
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