Leaping Charge [Rules]

[Sutek]

That's why I suggest it's at +0/-2 so there's some difficulty to it for the added attack. Heck, I'd even rule that the feat overrules the normal charge attack bonus of +2 and gives two attacks at -2.

But, you're right...it's truly nasty on a surprise charge from an ambush.

 

[Mayhem]

*shrug*

Not compared to a thief with a few levels behind him doing exactly the same thing, without needing the manouver.

Or somebody with rapid shot and a decent missle weapon who decides to stand still and shoot instead of chargin.

And not compared to a 10th level barbarian using greater mobility to run up to somebody and make a full attack with a weapon in each hand.

Or somebody one a horse charging somebody whom they have beaten in initiative, using a lance.

 

[sbarrie]

Or somebody one a horse charging somebody whom they have beaten in initiative, using a lance.

Which comes full circle, where in my games Knights with Spirited Charge and Ride-by-Attack feats were handily matched by footmen with Leaping Charge. I think cavalry need to be kicked up a notch too...

 

[AZZA]

*shrug*

Not compared to a thief with a few levels behind him doing exactly the same thing, without needing the manouver.

At 8th level the thief could use both charging up to 60', getting two finesse attacks each doing an extra 4d8 damage. Since that will have a very good chance of killing anyone without uncanny dodge or reflexive parry why wouldn't he use it.

Or somebody with rapid shot and a decent missle weapon who decides to stand still and shoot instead of chargin.

Rapid shot takes a feat, leaping charge doesn't. Full armor against missile weapons if your trying to rapid shot and no way of bumping up the damage, like power attack.

And not compared to a 10th level barbarian using greater mobility to run up to somebody and make a full attack with a weapon in each hand.

Isn't it 15th level, I haven't got my book with me, that they get to do the full charge and full attack? I thought 10th level was as long as you move 10 feet then you dont provoke AOO. 15th level suggests a serious character investment and probably shouldn't be compareable to something that pretty much anyone can do once there BAB is +6.

Or somebody one a horse charging somebody whom they have beaten in initiative, using a lance.

I wouldn't have thought a guy on foot should be compareable to one mounted. But even so the base damage on the lance isn't great so again you end up with the guy on foot actually able to do more damage again! Unless of course he has spirited charge but it costs 2 feats to get that and no feats to get leaping charge.

 

[Mayhem]

At 8th level the thief could use both charging up to 60', getting two finesse attacks each doing an extra 4d8 damage. Since that will have a very good chance of killing anyone without uncanny dodge or reflexive parry why wouldn't he use it.

For any number of reasons, including the target having lots of armour (the last thing you need when relying on Finesse is a penalty to hit with a thiefs mediocre BAB), or there being a good chace of there being a surviving opponent to take advantage of the lighty armoured thiefs huge defence penalty.

Yes, in some circumstances, he could use it. But in many circumstances, there are other equally devastating combat tactics that do not unbalance the game.

Rapid shot takes a feat, leaping charge doesn't. Full armor against missile weapons if your trying to rapid shot and no way of bumping up the damage, like power attack..

On the other hand, I can use this tactic with rapid shot at level one, when the foes are likely to have less hitpoints and porr armour, instead of having to wait until at least level 6.

Vis damage - apart from Point Blank Shot, sneak attack, and Weapon Specialisation, you mean? Yes, feats are required, but they are useful in their own right and are all available before 6th Level.

Isn't it 15th level, I haven't got my book with me, that they get to do the full charge and full attack? I thought 10th level was as long as you move 10 feet then you dont provoke AOO. 15th level suggests a serious character investment and probably shouldn't be compareable to something that pretty much anyone can do once there BAB is +6..

10th level, if the character takes the Mobility feat. That's only 2 levels above the theif in the example above, but without any penalties to hit, no penalties to defence, and probably wearing a lot better armour.

I wouldn't have thought a guy on foot should be compareable to one mounted. But even so the base damage on the lance isn't great so again you end up with the guy on foot actually able to do more damage again! Unless of course he has spirited charge but it costs 2 feats to get that and no feats to get leaping charge.

A Guy on foot isn't comparable, because the horse gives you a lot more advantages than just extra damage. It can fight for you, for a start, you can use a reach weapon in one hand, you can wear whatever armour you like without affecting your speed, and of course, the vastly increased mobility.

A lance used for charging is doing double damage - including the strength of the user, of course - and of course the horsemen are not suffering that extra -4 DV, and get to keep their +2 to hit. A lancer using ride by attack can be straight past you and out of your weapon reach, and any attempt to counter-charge will be met by an attack of opportunity


sbarrie, if you had a problem with horsemen being bettered by infantry, it sound more like a failure of tactics on the part of the horsemen, who should have, quite literally, run rings around their foot-slogging opponents.

****

Yes, its a powerful manouver, when you get the chance to use it. But in any normal combat you should get to use it once, if you are lucky.

And there are plenty of counter-tactics, of course. Reach weapons, for a start - do you really want a -4 DV on your opponents AoO? Setting weapons for a charge. Using scenery to make charges next to impossible. And using a good INIT roll to set a spear vs a charge can really ruin a chargers day, especially if he generously makes himself extra-easy to hit.

In short, for every situation in which leaping charge is powerful, there are a dozen in which it isn't. And in which something else is.

 

[AZZA]

For any number of reasons, including the target having lots of armour (the last thing you need when relying on Finesse is a penalty to hit with a thiefs mediocre BAB), or there being a good chace of there being a surviving opponent to take advantage of the lighty armoured thiefs huge defence penalty..

8th level thief BAB +6 DEX 18(he has had 3 increases) even without weapon focus has an attack bonus of +10. vs flat footed AC of 10. Even against a character in plate with a great helm he only needs to get a 12. Give him two shots at it and I'd say it a good chance.

On the other hand, I can use this tactic with rapid shot at level one, when the foes are likely to have less hitpoints and porr armour, instead of having to wait until at least level 6.

True but the 1st level character is using 2 feats to get this as well having a much lower attack bonus than the 6th level character and both are probably trying to hit the same defense, 10. Couple this with the much lower damage that the 1st level character is likely to be doing and it isn't really compareable.

Vis damage - apart from Point Blank Shot, sneak attack, and Weapon Specialisation, you mean? Yes, feats are required, but they are useful in their own right and are all available before 6th Level.

The Bardiche fighter lowers his attack bonus by 2, lets face it not much of a risk vs. defense of 10, and he does more bonus damage than point blank shot and weapon spec put together. Sneak attack he has to be within 30 feet, but otherwise I agree is very nasty.

10th level, if the character takes the Mobility feat. That's only 2 levels above the theif in the example above, but without any penalties to hit, no penalties to defence, and probably wearing a lot better armour.

IMHO if the GM lets a charcter get Greater mobility at 10th level he deserves what he gets.

A Guy on foot isn't comparable, because the horse gives you a lot more advantages than just extra damage. It can fight for you, for a start, you can use a reach weapon in one hand, you can wear whatever armour you like without affecting your speed, and of course, the vastly increased mobility.

Your the one that compared them above.

A lance used for charging is doing double damage - including the strength of the user, of course - and of course the horsemen are not suffering that extra -4 DV, and get to keep their +2 to hit. A lancer using ride by attack can be straight past you and out of your weapon reach, and any attempt to counter-charge will be met by an attack of opportunity.

Don't they still get the -2 to defense for charging and +1 to attack for higher ground. A character with 16 STR doing double damage with a lance is doing 2d10+6 AP 7. The same character using a bardiche is doing 2d10+4 AP 9. Your other points are all obvious valid but rely on 1 thing. The character has a horse. To use leaping charge what do they only need a bab of +6 and 1 rank in jump.

Yes, its a powerful manouver, when you get the chance to use it. But in any normal combat you should get to use it once, if you are lucky.

And there are plenty of counter-tactics, of course. Reach weapons, for a start - do you really want a -4 DV on your opponents AoO? Setting weapons for a charge. Using scenery to make charges next to impossible. And using a good INIT roll to set a spear vs a charge can really ruin a chargers day, especially if he generously makes himself extra-easy to hit .

All good points but I'm looking at it from a character survival point of view. Anything that makes combat more dangerous is detremental to the PC's and giving this ability to EVERYONE with a BAB of +6 is really going to mess them up. One of the NPC pirates in the "Pirate Isles" has, at 13th or 14th level, +22 on init. His attack bonus is over 20 so no prob hitting those defense values of 10 and he does around the 5d6 sneak attack. So he needs a 2 to finesse past a PC with plate and great helm doing over 20pts of damage on average. That could quite easily kill 2 high level characters in the first round. An extreme example but when there up against the BBG don't be surprised if the entire result of the combat boils down to that one initiative roll.

In short, for every situation in which leaping charge is powerful, there are a dozen in which it isn't. And in which something else is.

I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.
Sorry for ambushing the thread everyone. Just something I wanted to share and my solution, just for the record, is to not use this maneuver in my game.

 

[Trodax]

All good points but I'm looking at it from a character survival point of view. Anything that makes combat more dangerous is detremental to the PC's and giving this ability to EVERYONE with a BAB of +6 is really going to mess them up. One of the NPC pirates in the "Pirate Isles" has, at 13th or 14th level, +22 on init. His attack bonus is over 20 so no prob hitting those defense values of 10 and he does around the 5d6 sneak attack. So he needs a 2 to finesse past a PC with plate and great helm doing over 20pts of damage on average. That could quite easily kill 2 high level characters in the first round. An extreme example but when there up against the BBG don't be surprised if the entire result of the combat boils down to that one initiative roll.

The number of Conan combats I've run can still be counted on one hand, so I'm not that experienced, but it seems to me you've got a good point here. In most circumstances Leaping Charge seems pretty balanced; you get an extra attack but you do get a penalty to hit and the -4 to DV, which is rather severe. But during the first round of combat (which is probably when you are most likely to charge anyways) when everyone is stuck with a flat-footed DV of 10, it might be a little to brutal. As you said, since its so easy to hit (even with finesse against heavy armour) its really the number of attacks you can squeeze in thats important. Boost these attacks with either Sneak or Power Attack, and you might be looking at some pretty deadly first rounds. Sure, the first rounds in Conan will always be deadly, but Leaping Charge can effectively double this deadliness. As you said, boring if the outcome of the combat is decided with the initiative roll.
I dunno, but I'll have to think about whether or not to use this maneuver in my game.

Just out of curiosity, do you guys consider any of the other combat maneuvers over- or underpowered?

 

[Sutek]

Or somebody one a horse charging somebody whom they have beaten in initiative, using a lance.

Which comes full circle, where in my games Knights with Spirited Charge and Ride-by-Attack feats were handily matched by footmen with Leaping Charge. I think cavalry need to be kicked up a notch too...

Calvary and archery always seem to suffer in RPGs. Archery even more so, IMNSHO.

 

[sbarrie]

sbarrie, if you had a problem with horsemen being bettered by infantry, it sound more like a failure of tactics on the part of the horsemen, who should have, quite literally, run rings around their foot-slogging opponents.

Ride-by-attack allows you to make a move action after attacking without provoking an AoO from your target. A horse moves 50' per round, and a man in heavy armour can Leaping Charge 50' in a round. Seems like a knight would have a hard time ditching a determined footman, unless I'm missing some nuance of mounted combat.

I didn't use miniatures to plot out the combat because it was running late, plus the combat was going to be a hard one and miniatures tend to put this group at a disadvantage.

I also didn't factor in the fact that a lance is a reach weapon. That should have made a big difference.

Now I need to create another conflict with cavalry and use miniatures and reach weapons. Let's see what changes.