Lack of affinity for players when creating a Farmer Traveller?

[Limpin Legin]

@MasterGwydion , I would agree with roll play vs roleplay, only I assume "game mechanic" to be purely about the former not the latter.

@Vormaerin Oh?! How odd. Games usually have a competitive mission. Some games are also cooperative or team-based. If you use the Board Gamming Geeks categories, "cooperative" is different to "team based". Players would talk indirectly about their "values", rather than directly about "winning." But subconsciously, the principle is there.

 

[Vormaerin]

Wanting to win and wanting to have a pushover like 2+ rollsn and infinite wealth are two entirely different things. If I brought out a game where the players could just curbstomp at will, they'd maybe play once and never be interested again.

 

[Limpin Legin]

Wanting to win and wanting to have a pushover like 2+ rollsn and infinite wealth are two entirely different things. If I brought out a game where the players could just curbstomp at will, they'd maybe play once and never be interested again.

Well. It is notable practice in computer games. Some websites even specialize in providing **cheat codes** for gamers, so they can cruise their way to victory. But you can just do computer games for eye candy. Pencil-and-paper games require more cerebral imagination, and using imagination is part of the game's appeal.

 

[Condottiere]

I like playing an overpowered character, on occasion.

I also like playing an underpowered character.

Depends on the mood.

 

[MasterGwydion]

@MasterGwydion , I would agree with roll play vs roleplay, only I assume "game mechanic" to be purely about the former not the latter.

Nope. "Game Mechanic" is simply the rules of the game, not how the game is played. I doubt I have the correct words to explain this properly, but I will try. Game mechanics are simply the rules of the game. This is the same for all games be they RPGs, card games, board games, etc. What is different about RPGs from all of these other types of games is Role-play. It is collective storytelling. None of these other games involve collectively telling a story around a table. All of these other types are games have winners and losers. Role-playing does not. In roleplaying, the goal is to collectively have fun, so by definition, everyone wins in every game as long as everyone has fun. No other game on the planet is like that. It is one way that roleplaying games are unique, because We are basically all writers telling a collective story. The only reason for dice rolling in RPGs is to add a level of uncertainty. I have played RPGs that have no dice rolls and are more improvisational theater than an actual game with rules. Heck, even Traveller says to not bother rolling dice unless there is a dramatic need for it. Otherwise, We'd be crashing into the Starport many times in each campaign. I have even been in games where players fail dice rolls on purpose, without ever rolling the dice, because it would add something to the story. Just told the DM, I failed that roll. The DM will usually ask, regular fail or spectacular fail? I'll pick whichever one I think adds the most fun to the story and take the failure. If the goal was to "win" that would never happen.

@Vormaerin Oh?! How odd. Games usually have a competitive mission. Some games are also cooperative or team-based. If you use the Board Gamming Geeks categories, "cooperative" is different to "team based". Players would talk indirectly about their "values", rather than directly about "winning." But subconsciously, the principle is there.

An RPG is always cooperative and never competitive. If you think otherwise, you are roll-playing. Even a game like the Vampire LARP where everyone in game is your enemy, I still work with the players cooperatively to shape a fun game. Their character is My character's enemy, not the player. Players work together to have fun. If your fun requires being competitive and beating the other people around the table, go to a casino, because what you are doing is not role-playing.

 

[Limpin Legin]

Nope. "Game Mechanic" is ...

Whelp, you've disagreed syntactically but agreed with me semantically, and I was only quoting you in the first place. So I don't get the opening syntax.

None of these other games involve collectively telling a story around a table. All of these other types are games have winners and losers. Role-playing does not. In roleplaying, the goal is to collectively have fun, so by definition, everyone wins in every game as long as everyone has fun. No other game on the planet is like that. It is one way that roleplaying games are unique, because We are basically all writers telling a collective story.

Yes. IK. But the fun is to succeed and success is a measure of winning. Might not be the same kind of gruelling winning as in Olympics, school sport, Nascar, ... or even 'less gruelling' Chess, Dominoes, etc. To communicate to a referee and be completely understood is another kind of success and therefore it is a little win of some description. Party games are purely about having frolicking fun, rather than winning. But, with experience, it is noticeable that losing in RPGs is "fun" when it is a comical error or when the party is strong enough to be resilient to the incurred damage. Over time, players become quite fond of the characters in the adventuring party, so much so, when a character dies, everyone in the party becomes visibly upset. It is quite emotional.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Whelp, you've disagreed syntactically but agreed with me semantically, and I was only quoting you in the first place. So I don't get the opening syntax.


Yes. IK. But the fun is to succeed and success is a measure of winning.

Fun is the goal. Our whole party can be wiped out and We may be talking about how it was the coolest death ever for decades to come. That does not meet your definition of "success", but it does Mine. Everyone smiling is the only win in RPGs.

Might not be the same kind of gruelling winning as in Olympics, school sport, Nascar, ... or even 'less gruelling' Chess, Dominoes, etc. To communicate to a referee and be completely understood is another kind of success and therefore it is a little win of some description. Party games are purely about having frolicking fun, rather than winning. But, with experience, it is noticeable that losing in RPGs is "fun" when it is a comical error or when the party is strong enough to be resilient to the incurred damage. Over time, players become quite fond of the characters in the adventuring party, so much so, when a character dies, everyone in the party becomes visibly upset. It is quite emotional.

Agreed. Role-playing requires a level of emotional maturity that many do not possess. Problem players will be helped to learn better that it is not about "winning", but if after some time, they refuse to learn, they won't be invited back to play.

 

[Limpin Legin]

Our whole party can be wiped out and We may be talking about how it was the coolest death ever for decades to come. That does not meet your definition of "success", but it does Mine.

Your way death => coolest => smiling => decades
My way, death => coolest => success => decades

There isn't difference about that other than the flavour of our nomenculture.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Your way death => coolest => smiling => decades
My way, death => coolest => success => decades

There isn't difference about that other than the flavour of our nomenculture.

and yet, happiness (smiling) isn't in yours.

 

[Limpin Legin]

FYI, I am happy and smiling

 

[mavikfelna]

Thanks to @Limpin Legin for pointing me towards this for my careers list. Here is my take on it. I do need help though, the Land Grant benefit, how can do that?

RURALITE (From Mongoose Forum user @agentwiggles)
Entry: SOC 5+
Automatic Entry if SOC is 5 or lower.
Assignments
Rustix: Lives out of sight, convenience, enforcement of communal reach.
Agriculturist: Lives at, works or owns a farm or ranch.
Townie: Works and lives at the spoke to the hub of the wider politely.

Career Progress​

	Survival	Advancement
Rustix:	DEX 8+	INT 8+
Agriculturist:	END 8+	EDU 8+
Townie:	INT 6+	SOC 8+

Skills and Training​

1D	Personal Development	Basic Training	Advanced Education (EDU 8+)
1	Athletics END	Animals	Electronics
2	Athletics STR	Survival	Engineering
3	Athletics DEX	Profession	Medic
4	Melee	Mechanics	Jack of all Trades
5	Carouse	Drive	Broker
6	Jack of all Trades	Electronics	Science (Life Sciences) or (History)
1D	Rustix	Agriculturists	Townie
1	Survival	Animals	Carouse
2	Gambling	Mechanics	Drive
3	Animals	Broker	Flyer
4	Mechanics	Science (Life Sciences) or (History)	Gambling
5	Gun Combat	Drive	Broker
6	Stealth	Flyer	Persuade

Mishaps

1D	Mishap
1	Severely Injured. Roll twice on the injury list, take the worst results.
2	Injured. One stat is reduced by 1d6 (or whatever the 2 mishap is for every/most career)
3	Misadventure. Not rejected from Career. Change to a different assignment in this career for next term. Unless you have had a survival roll in every assignment in this career then go to Prisoner Career next term.
4	A sure thing, wasn’t. Give up Benny form this career and not rejected from this career and change assignment for this career for next term.
5	Hard life, is hard on the body. Roll on the injury table. Gain DM -1 to your next aging roll and your next aging roll.
6	Just too bad of a season. Lose one Benny roll.

​

​

Events​

2D	Event
1	Seriously Injured. Roll twice on the injury table. Take the worse results.
2	Life is an adventure. Roll on the Mishap chart. You are not rejected from this career or forced to change careers.
3	Who you thought was your boo, turned to be sweet on someone who you thought was your friend. Do nothing. Gain a rival and an enemy. Have some words. Roll Carouse 8+. On success, gain a rival and your boo. Feel hard about it. Roll Melee 8+. On success gain two enemies. On failure roll on the injury table.
4	Gambling?! I’m in. You may gamble a number of Benefit rolls and roll Gambler 8+ or Broker 8+. If you succeed, you gain half as many Benefit rolls as you risked, rounding up. If you fail, you lose all the rolls risked. Either way, gain one level in whichever skill you used.
5	A sure thing, was? Dumbfounded by dumb luck; gain either or DM+2 to your next Advancement Roll or DM+1 to one Benefits Roll or an Additional Benefits roll from this career.
6	Correspondent Course was legit. Gain any skill at 1 except Jack of All Trades.
7	Roll on the Life Event table
8	The son of a gun did it. Made it out. Either; Dang, I'm proud. Gain an alley. What's wrong with staying?! Gain a rival.
9	Cash Crop fad. Either; Exploit it as hard as you can. Gain an additional Benefits roll and Dm-1 on your next and only next Aging roll. Or Stay the course and gain Dm+1 on your next Advancement Roll.
10	Land Developers. Either; Sell your Land and gain 3 extra Benefits rolls but you must leave this career. Be a stubborn jackass. Roll D6. 1-3, lose your land and you must change assignments for this career for next assignment. 4-6 The Developers stop trying to buy your land but also won’t buy from anyone else. Lose 1d3 SOC. Fight it in court. Advocate 8+. On success you may sell the land for 6 additional Benefits rolls or retain it and gain DM+2 on your next Advancement roll. On a failure. Lose the land and must change assignment for this career for your next term. Or hire a city attorney and lose one Benefits roll. Keep your land gain 1 enemy and DM +2 on your next Adv roll.
11	You can make it out. A tramp trader offering you a spot. If you accept, on your next term you have automatic qualification on the Merchant or Citizen career and gain one enemy. If you decline, gain a free trader crew as a rival and DM+2 on your next advancement roll.
12	You saved the Town. Automatic Promotion. Must stay in this Career for your next term.

Ranks and Bonuses

Rank	Rustix	Skill or Bonus	Agriculturalist	Skill or Bonus	Townie	Skill or Bonus
0	--	--	--	--	--	--
1	Hunter	Profession (Hunter) 1	Hired Hand	Profession (Farmer) 1	Town Folk	Profession (any) 1
2	--	--	--	--	--	--
3	Experienced Hunter	Mechanic 1	Sodbuster	Science (Agriculture) 1	Respected Neighbor	Electronics (any) 1
4	--	--	--	--	--	--
5	Old Coot	END +1	Yeoman	SOC +1	Manager	SOC +1
6	--	--	--	--	--	--

Benefits

1D	Cash	Benefits
1	500	SOC +1
2	700	END +1 or STR +1
3	1000	Personal Vehicle
4	1000	Weapon
5	2500	Toolkit
6	3500	Animal
7	5000	Pension of 5,000 credits or Land Grant

Pension and Injury coverage is the same as the Scout career.

Land Grant: You have received a small grant of land on the planet you are working on. This land can be used to generate a modest income, treat it as a standard Pension, or may be sold for a Ship Share.

 

[Anstett]

Perhaps similar to the Corporation Benefit from the Aslan?

 

[mavikfelna]

Perhaps similar to the Corporation Benefit from the Aslan?

That was where I got idea to allow it to be sold for a ship share.

 

[ottarrus]

OK, enough with this hipster bush hippie nonsense.
The career is FARMER, not 'artiste agriculurale'.
If you feel the need to subdivide it, it's Farmer and Recluse. There is no need for 'townie', they're just Citizen [Worker or Corporate].
And what's with all the negativity about the Farmer career? No, you're not an urbane cosmopolitan, you're where food comes from. You're less refined, more violent, tougher, more determined, and are experienced with hardship. There is a reason why armies throughout history preferred farm boys over street rats.
Skill changes:
- Advanced Edu table eligibility is EDU 8+, not 10
- Animal [both Training and Veterinary] needs to appear more often
- Add Remote Ops [um, farm bots]
- JoT needs to appear more often; farmer are, if nothing else, 'jacks of damned near every trade'
- Science needs to be applicable... there are zero farmers who got a degree in psionicology without a referee 'helping'; focus on Biology, Ecology, Geology, Agriculture, Chemistry
- Substitute Broker for Vacc Suit [WTF does a farmer need a vacc suit for?]
- There is absolutely no need for Pilot, replace with Remote Ops
- Melee should be somewhere in Physical Development at least once
- History should show up once on the skill charts; NOBODY knows a region's history like the people who farm it generation after generation.

Event changes:
Just why the Hell do you need to 'escape' farming? To leave the farm, all you have to do wait till the end of your term and roll to qualify for something else. When all else fails, go Drifter or submit to the Draft.
There are lots of alternates for 'Escape' events. 'Bumper Crop' or 'Hard Times' +/- income respectively. 'Do Well At the Fair' +1 to one Benefit Roll, etc.

 

[Jame Rowe]

OK, enough with this hipster bush hippie nonsense.
The career is FARMER
If you feel the need to subdivide it, it's Farmer and Recluse. There is no need for 'townie', they're just Citizen [Worker or Corporate].
And what's with all the negativity about the Farmer career? No, you're not an urbane cosmopolitan, you're where food comes from. You're less refined, more violent, tougher, more determined, and are experienced with hardship. There is a reason why armies throughout history preferred farm boys over street rats.
Skill changes:
- Advanced Edu table eligibility is EDU 8+, not 10
- Animal [both Training and Veterinary] needs to appear more often
- Remote Ops [um, farm bots]
- JoT needs to appear more often
- Science needs to be applicable... there are zero farmers who got a degree in psionicology without a referee 'helping'; focus on Biology, Ecology, Geology, Agriculture, Chemistry
- Substitute Broker for Vacc Suit [WTF does a farmer need a vacc suit for?]
- There is absolutely no need for Pilot, replace with Remote Ops
- Melee should be somewhere in Physical Development at least once
- History should show up once on the skill charts; NOBODY knows a region's history like the people who farm it generation after generation.

Event changes:
Just why the Hell do you need to 'escape' farming? To leave the farm, all you have to do wait till the end of your term and roll to qualify for something else. When all else fails, go Drifter or submit to the Draft.
There are lots of alternates for 'Escape' events. 'Bumper Crop' or 'Hard Times' +/- income respectively. 'Do Well At the Fair' +1 to one Benefit Roll, etc.

I'd add in veterinary specialist as a third option.
Yes, replace Pilot, but with Electronics in general.
Replace Vacc Suit with Flyer, but add in a note that a player could use it to gain vacc Suit skill or Pilot: Small Craft if they can sell the GM on a reason.

 

[mavikfelna]

OK, enough with this hipster bush hippie nonsense.
The career is FARMER
If you feel the need to subdivide it, it's Farmer and Recluse. There is no need for 'townie', they're just Citizen [Worker or Corporate].
And what's with all the negativity about the Farmer career? No, you're not an urbane cosmopolitan, you're where food comes from. You're less refined, more violent, tougher, more determined, and are experienced with hardship. There is a reason why armies throughout history preferred farm boys over street rats.
Skill changes:
- Advanced Edu table eligibility is EDU 8+, not 10
- Animal [both Training and Veterinary] needs to appear more often
- Remote Ops [um, farm bots]
- JoT needs to appear more often
- Science needs to be applicable... there are zero farmers who got a degree in psionicology without a referee 'helping'; focus on Biology, Ecology, Geology, Agriculture, Chemistry
- Substitute Broker for Vacc Suit [WTF does a farmer need a vacc suit for?]
- There is absolutely no need for Pilot, replace with Remote Ops
- Melee should be somewhere in Physical Development at least once
- History should show up once on the skill charts; NOBODY knows a region's history like the people who farm it generation after generation.

Event changes:
Just why the Hell do you need to 'escape' farming? To leave the farm, all you have to do wait till the end of your term and roll to qualify for something else. When all else fails, go Drifter or submit to the Draft.
There are lots of alternates for 'Escape' events. 'Bumper Crop' or 'Hard Times' +/- income respectively. 'Do Well At the Fair' +1 to one Benefit Roll, etc.

Not sure about the event change. Maybe the fair. I have made the other changes you suggested in my post above. I suck with events, need ideas.

 

[mavikfelna]

I'd add in veterinary specialist as a third option.
Yes, replace Pilot, but with Electronics in general.
Replace Vacc Suit with Flyer, but add in a note that a player could use it to gain vacc Suit skill or Pilot: Small Craft if they can sell the GM on a reason.

Ok, I like Veterinary Specialist. But give me some idea on what should show up there.

 

[mavikfelna]

Hows this for Veterinary Specialist
Veterinary Specialist: Works with animals to keep them healthy and productive.

Career Progress

Veterinary Specialist

INT 6+

EDU 8+

Skills

Veterinary Specialist

Medic

Animal

Driver

Electronics

Broker

Persuade

Rank

Veterinary Specialist	Skill or Bonus
--	--
Vet Tech	Animal (Veterinary) 1
--	--
Veterinarian	Electronics (any) 1
--	--
Senior Veterinarian	EDU +1
--	--

 

[mavikfelna]

I'm not sure on what to do for the Veterinarian rank. Perhaps Science (Life Science)? Also not sold on Persuade as a skill but not sure what else. Perhaps Science again?

 

[mavikfelna]

For the events, I kinda like event 11, even if it's a silly escape one. It's just someone wants a change.
But, number 8 does need to change. I like Do Well At The Fair, you gain +1 on any one Benefits roll.
What do you all think?