Jumping Dwarves in Empty Hexes, and other canon abominations

[captainjack23]

Here, in several posts, is what may be a solution for the discrepencies between how jump works in Gurps Interstellar Wars and in Classic Traveller, and by extension, Mongoose Traveller.

Keep in mind this is canon neutral. My point isn't an attempt to decide canon status one way or another. Okay ? Aramis and I (and others) have another thread we can do that in.

The background is presented in more detail in the "Empty hexes...again" thread as well as some older and somewhat derailed threads.

To sum up, in the Interstellar wars period, the time of conflict between Terra and The first Imperium, jumps worked differently. Specifically, the mechanism for empty hex jumps was different, and only partly described or explained. As it stands now, the current explanation implies some contradictions which must be fallacious, as we also know that these books are a real and true history of the next several millennia. Clearly the quick explanation in GTIW was a simplification and greater accuracy was outside of the scope and needs of the text.

Luckily, though, we can deal with this...by means of SUPER-RETRORATIONALIZATION !

 

[captainjack23]

To expand on this issue we must differentiate between Standard Jump points, Empty Hex Jump point (EHJ) and a dwarf mass jump point (DMJ).
A standard jump point is a star to star jump, limited only by the jump distance of the ship.
An Empty hex jump is exactly that: a jump into, or out of (or both) hexes with no star or nearby substellar mass (the brown dwarf)
A Dwarf mass Jump point is a jump route that involves a local substellar mass at either end of the jump .
The initial Theory of Jumpspace required a mass (of an arbitrary but distinct) size at both ends of a jump. This allowed a Standard Jump, and a DMJ but not a true EHJ –where empty is defined as any mass less than the mass cutoff.

We know that for Standard jumps, the risk is the same as it ever was, in the 1105 setting or the IW setting. And we have a lower bound situation where jump is impossible (the EHJ condition). Now, given that, one might fairly postulate a transition area above the “not allowed” mass, but below the “business as normal” certainly with a higher chance of misjump than a standard jump, but less 100%; this could be a constant or an increasing value, either works –and jump theory does seem to rely on cut points rather than continuous limits (example: 10 diameters jump or less = Doom. 100+ = fine) .

So now we have a jump that is riskier than a normal jump, but unavoidable in many cases. One can jump over gaps (dwarf containing, or empty) via a standard jump between two, if one has a J2 drive. (And a jump 2 ship is similarly limited by the Mass requirements for longer gaps).

Otherwise, if you want to go to Genoee, you gotta jump with a dwarf.

 

[captainjack23]

Now, the above is an artifact of the primitive math computations of the IW period made a dwarf mass jump They create a situation that is similar to that of shallows (reefs, sea mounts) in sea travel ocean: in general, ships avoid them, but sometimes you have to take the risk if that’s the only way to get where you want to go.
So, the Vilani used them for exploration and contact, but as they developed J2, the risk wasn’t enough to make using them as J1 points desirable or profitable. Plus, I can see the Vilani preferring to have specialized ferry stations as cultural bulkheads…possibly the J2 transports one had to transship to were under heavy Government control –or possibly military ownership (the Corporate state(s) of the Vilani didn’t differentiate some things that seem obvious to us). So, before jump 2, they were an unavoidable risk; as J2 showed up, the points became less used, and more avoided by overjumps. I’d actually suggest that the last commonly used DMJ points would be the ones in deep gaps – that were used to cross a J2 gap.

 

[captainjack23]

Now, the math bit. Here I’ll pose a slightly different assumption than the standard one we all have used; the calculations for EHJ theory are not an extension of the standard mass-mass calculation; rather, they solve it for specifically different exit and entrance situations. So, rather than a superior , advanced matmatical calculation that replaces the old one, we retain the mass-mass procedures, and add a different set that only apply with one or both ends empty. Why ? heres why: retaining the original calculations creates a situation that allows us to jump to empty hexes with no additional risk, but to dwarf points with the previous level of risk.
As a result, DMJs become redundant and riskier than EHJ – and so become of no use whatsoever even if they are still well known and marked – they would be little more than oddities in the history of star travel, and due to the risk imposed my minimal mass solutions, are not even a good candidate for aaclassic deep space calibration and fuel point.. Finally, I doubt that they would be reused during or after the long night: the fact that the new math had been discovered and was known to exist would make it much more likely that when planets rediscovered (or reintroduced or reverse engineered) jump, they developed both sets of calculations.


How's that ?

 

[rust]

How's that ?

Much better than good enough for me.

 

[captainjack23]

How's that ?

Much better than good enough for me.

Thank-hew ! Thank-hew !

 

[Gruffty the Hiver]

SUPER-RETRORATIONALIZATION !

... loony ...

 

[Jeff Hopper]

You know...

Is the assumption that a ship drops out of jump when it comes within 100 diameters of an object with the same displacement as the ship?

If so, your calibration point for the deep space jump could very well be just an interstellar cometary body. If you maneuver it right, a world could direct its own comets out into interstellar space to act as steppingstones for jump on a regular basis, just change their orbits.

 

[EDG]

If so, your calibration point for the deep space jump could very well be just an interstellar cometary body. If you maneuver it right, a world could direct its own comets out into interstellar space to act as steppingstones for jump on a regular basis, just change their orbits.

Given that he seems to be suggesting that Brown Dwarfs are barely able to give you a good enough lock to be able to jump to, comets would be more the equivalent of an EHJ.

(canonically speaking I don't think there's been any evidence of a 'mass limit' for jumps. Microjumps seem to be possible to distant gas giants elsewhere within the same system without penalty).

 

[captainjack23]

SUPER-RETRORATIONALIZATION !

... loony ...

This from the man who for years role-played a mobile mop ? (I presume)

 

[captainjack23]

Speaking of Brown Dwarfs, here's an interesting article...

http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/15/coolest-darkest-brown-dwarf-star-discovered/

 

[Jeff Hopper]

Speaking of Brown Dwarfs, here's an interesting article...

http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/15/coolest-darkest-brown-dwarf-star-discovered/

Yeah, but interstellar cometary bodies are probably more numerous. Maybe even so numerous that they are the causes of misjumps when a ship passes to close to one.

 

[captainjack23]

Speaking of Brown Dwarfs, here's an interesting article...

http://www.universetoday.com/2008/04/15/coolest-darkest-brown-dwarf-star-discovered/

Yeah, but interstellar cometary bodies are probably more numerous. Maybe even so numerous that they are the causes of misjumps when a ship passes to close to one.

Thats true for sure -about their frequency - and the smaller brown dwarves (type T ?) are suggested to be twice as frequent as H burning stars.

However, as for using the comets for mass jumps, it just seems that they would be orders of magnitude harder to find - and contrariwise if tech does allow them to be found and used, its hard to see why one can't use them to go from anywhere to anywhere pretty directly using just J1 jumps. (one could presumably refuel from a comet, also...)

The "J1 to anywhere" issue is a big part of why I'm thinking there needs to be some lower limit to the mass for a mass-mass jump. Otherwise, as discussed elsewhere, moving comet sized rocks is an (expensive)* option that would eventually link everywhere by J1....and that doesn't seem to be the case.

Note as suggested: the below is canon neutral both with regards to the canon status of GTIW, Imperium and various other edition statements about jump.

The mass-mass jump idea in GTIW does go quite a ways to explaining how the interstellar wars period (modeled in Imperium) worked out the way it did; but

1. it needs some way to explain how the Vilanii crossed empty hexes to get where they had to historically go with only J1.

2. any such solution also needs to explain where all those damned useful connector points are now -as they sure aren't on the maps.

My general suggestion is that bodies that are not large enough to support a self-sustaining fusion reaction are significantly worse endpoints for mass-mass jumps, and thus a high risk situation; but one that cannot be entirely avoided; most merchants wouldn't touch 'em, and most significant military assets are too valuble except in absolute desperation. When an EHJ solution becomes available, and turns out to be safer and more reliable, the brown dwarf jumps go away as seriously not worth the risk.

The key addition to the information presented in GTIW is minor, and actually a clarification: that the new EHJ math is an addition to jump tech, rather than replacing the mass-mass jump calculations; and the EHJ math is only applicable to jumps involving one or more empty hexes.

Jumping mass to mass uses the same calculations as in the IW period; and in fact, with EHJ math, one would tend to avoid the old low mass jump points, so as to minimize risks.

My specific suggestion about the missing terran brown dwarf jump point is at the start of the other empty hex thread......
EDIT: my attempt to link over there seems to have failed. Sorry 'bout that !

As to them, or any mass, causing premature precipitation, geeze. Thats a whole 'nother mass of worms....which I will remain silent on.



* relative to the resources of current countries, it imagine its somewhere on the continum or effort between interstate overpasses and bloody great suspension bridges...

 

[EDG]

Yeah, but interstellar cometary bodies are probably more numerous. Maybe even so numerous that they are the causes of misjumps when a ship passes to close to one.

Once again I feel that people fail to grasp the sheer vastness of space, and the comparative miniscule tininess of a mere cometary body (or even planet).

Plot a straight line through a cubic parsec of space, and the chance that you'll intersect a cometary body wandering through it is pretty damn close to zero. Even if you're in an Oort Cloud.

If you don't believe me, calculate the volume of a cubic parsec, and compare that with the volume of (a) a starship and (b) a comet. There's a lot of room elsewhere in that cubic parsec for the comet to be that ain't where your ship was, is or will be.

 

[captainjack23]

<snip>

Note as suggested: the below is canon neutral both with regards to the canon status of GTIW, Imperium and various other edition statements about jump.

The mass-mass jump idea in GTIW does go quite a ways to explaining how the interstellar wars period (modeled in Imperium) worked out the way it did; but
<snip>

Nota bene: in the interests of thread consolidation, I've copied the above over back to the original thread, which seems to have wandered back on track. No agenda implied or stated, just clarification.