Jump travel without training

[Strategiusz]

It looks like you can make a jump with no Astrogation and no Engineer. You get -3 for skill, but you can take +2 for time. And the jump task has 4+ difficulty for both Astrogation and Engineer. And those check are chained, so failing one is not a big issue.
And additionally a real misjump is on effect -3. Effects -1 and -2 look like not a problem to have.
So a person with -3 Astrogation and -3 Engineer have to roll 2, to end in deep space.

 

[Vormaerin]

Yes, you can throw your ship into jumpspace by pushing random buttons. If your lack of competent crew hasn't resulted in poor maintenance, the modifiers are just jump distance on the astrogation test. If you take 1d6 hours for reach test, then the Astrogation Test for a Jump 1 would be 4+ on 2d6-2 (+2 for extra time, -1 for Jump 1, -3 for unskilled). So, about 2 out of 3 tries, you'd have an adequate jump plot.

Then the Engineer's test, also taking 1d6 hours to try to get the engines functioning right, would be a 4+ on 2d6-1. That's an 80 or 90% chance depending on whether the astrogation roll gives you a bonus and you'll only have a bad jump (extra time, far from intended arrival point but still in system).

So, yes, from a mechanics point of view, the ship can be operated by an unskilled crew in completely safe conditions without destroying itself. But if you don't have 2d6 hours to prep your jump or you are in adverse jump terrain, it'll be pretty bad.

There's also the issue that in most settings, the government frowns on unlicensed people operating space ships, if they were to try this as a long term strategy. But that depends on the setting and not mechanics.

Note that the expanded jump operations rules in JTAS 3 don't conform to the standard increased/decreased time rules. But they only address going faster, not slower. So taking longer may reasonably be assumed to be the normal mechanic.

 

[Condottiere]

Seems counterintuitive.

I think that time is an important aspect, and that you have access to a Youtube tutorial.

 

[Vormaerin]

What seems counterintuitive? I know short, abstruse comments are your leitmotif but there's too much that might be referring to in this case to parse it out.

I'm sure the youtube tutorial is why they can do it at all.

 

[ChrisJ]

IMTU the 4+ roll is for using the equivalent of the CT jump tapes - 8+ is for on-the fly calculated tests, and the Engineer can't take extra time as the calculation will be rendered out of "date" due to "stellar drift".

That said with a Comp/2 (probably a tablet or handcomm at TL12), Intellect/1, and Expert/1 (Astrogation and Engineer Jumpdrives) could run both Jump drive and Astrogation with a 0 Modifier, as both are INT/EDU tasks (for a cost of 2825Cr). Tl12 minimum for Astrogation Expert Program.

 

[Condottiere]

I think it's a question of complexity and consequence.

You probably could figure out how to operate a turret, beyond point and click, to how to get the autoloader operating and turning on the power to the lasers.

But I suspect that astrogation requires an understanding of how extradimensional physics work, otherwise you could hand it off to a computer programme. Maybe that's possible, but it appears that there has to be some reason that this edition emphasizes the need for a living sentient being doing the actual calculation.

Engineering may require understanding how to prevent the fusion reactor from going offline, or blowing up.

But in our case, it would be tempering the jump drive so that whatever energies are coalescing within there, doesn't suddenly hiccup.

 

[Strategiusz]

Oh, right, I forget about DM-1 per parsec.

[...] Astrogation Test for a Jump 1 would be 4+ on 2d6-2 (+2 for extra time, -1 for Jump 1, -3 for unskilled). [...]

 

[Vormaerin]

Oh, right, I forget about DM-1 per parsec. But I don't understand why it is 2d6-2.

I spelled it out? +2 Extra Time, -1 for Jump 1, -3 for Unskilled = -2.

 

[Vormaerin]

I think it's a question of complexity and consequence.

You probably could figure out how to operate a turret, beyond point and click, to how to get the autoloader operating and turning on the power to the lasers.

But I suspect that astrogation requires an understanding of how extradimensional physics work, otherwise you could hand it off to a computer programme. Maybe that's possible, but it appears that there has to be some reason that this edition emphasizes the need for a living sentient being doing the actual calculation.

Engineering may require understanding how to prevent the fusion reactor from going offline, or blowing up.

But in our case, it would be tempering the jump drive so that whatever energies are coalescing within there, doesn't suddenly hiccup.

You are entitled to say "No, you can't even attempt that without skill". That's always an option.

But the Jump Control software incorporates astrogation software and jump engine management according to the rules. The engineer and astrogator are there to monitor the computer and make sure it does what's supposed to. IMHO, that's why the task is "Easy". It normally doesn't require any significant effort on the part of the crew person.

And Astrogation is an eligible Expert Skill that can be run by a Expert system computer. The idea that sophont brains are somehow necessary for jumpspace travel drifts into and out of Traveller lore in various products over the various editions. But it doesn't appear to be a hard rule anywhere in MgT that I am aware of.

Virtual Crew rules are a bit ambiguous. On one hand, it specifically says that Virtual Crew can replace 'pilots, sensor operators, and gunners' with no mention of astrogators or engineers. But then it goes on to talk about how ships make tests when it has no living crew at all. I interpret that to mean that the specific Engineering crew actions for combat like juicing the engines can't be done by Virtual Crew, but routine engine use can be handled by the computer. But YMMV.

Classic Traveller had the "Generate" program that existed just to produce jump plots, but that went away a long time ago.

 

[ChrisJ]

Robot Handbook (pg102) has a section on Robot brains and Astrogation skill limitation (-ve DMs), and High Guard has a section on the description of the Astrogator roles, and states most races do not automate this position.

 

[Vormaerin]

Robot Handbook (pg102) has a section on Robot brains and Astrogation skill limitation (-ve DMs), and High Guard has a section on the description of the Astrogator roles, and states most races do not automate this position.

Which means your typical Ship's Brain or computer is still as good or better at it than an untrained human. The Ship's Brain has a -4 after applying the Astrogation skill package that it has (+1 or more). While the untrained human is just -3.

The Astrogation penalty is easy enough to accept as just more jump space woo-woo. But I do wonder what possible reason for the jump drive itself not working properly unless someone is somewhere on the ship. Put a chirper on your ship and the computer can run the jump drive just fine! Uhh, okay. Shooor...

 

[Condottiere]

If you'd ask me the one position in a starship that could be more or less eliminated, I'd say astrogator.

I have the feeling that's a common sentiment, otherwise why go out of their way in this edition and emphasize it as a requirement for transition?

Legacy allows jump tapes for a rather horrendous service fee charge, making an astrogator look rather cheap in comparison.

However, I rather suspect that all starship academies make astrogation a mandatory requirement, especially for line officers.

 

[Vormaerin]

Navigation certainly was for sailing officers.

 

[ChrisJ]

The need for a sentient aboard goes all the way back to CT (once Jump Torpedoes were ruled no longer cannon). probably the later HG version.
Another thing to note is that the Astrogator is the highest paid position on the Ship - yet it is the engineer who makes the critical roll.

 

[Condottiere]

1. The engineering skill might be the most useful one onboard, and can extend way beyond those boundaries.

2. Something I took from ShadowRun were associated skills, knowledge and abilities: if you have a doctorate in astrophysics, you might be qualified enough to do an ad hoc astrogation calculation.

 

[ChrisJ]

I'd certainly allow for a linked test to supply +1 (or +2 on Outstanding success), on the unskilled Astrogation roll.

 

[Vormaerin]

The need for a sentient aboard goes all the way back to CT (once Jump Torpedoes were ruled no longer cannon). probably the later HG version.
Another thing to note is that the Astrogator is the highest paid position on the Ship - yet it is the engineer who makes the critical roll.

I'd like a citation on that. Obviously, Classic Traveller didn't have Virtual Crew as a thing in the main rules, so by default nothing could be automated. But there's nothing in Book 2, Book 5, or Book 8 that says that that I am aware of. But it does say that you don't need a navigator unless your ship is greater than 200 tons and you don't need an engineer unless your ship is greater than 100 tons. I no longer have my copy of the Starship Operator's Manual or other Megatraveller rules (grr...), so can't say if it got introduced then.

Classic Traveller misjumps weren't a function of a skill test. They were a random event that could happen because of bad maintenance, using unrefined fuel, or (in the 1980 version) not having enough engineers for the size of your ship.

In CT, the computer did the work. The Navigator doesn't make a skill check for plotting a jump course. That's what the Generate program and Jump programs were for. As far as I can tell, the human control was just part of the Third Imperium's 'no free willed machines' issues. The Annic Nova was able to jump on its own just fine.

Here's the Generate Program from Classic Traveller: "Generate creates a flight plan which will govern the use of the jump program. The navigator or pilot can input specific co-ordinates into the computer concerning a destination, and the generate program will create a flight plan to take the ship there. In cases where a generate program is not available, starports have single-use flight plans (in self-erasing cassettes) available for all worlds within jump range for Cr10,OOO per jump number. The generate program may be used independently and produces the required flight plan, which is then used by the computer when jump is performed."

Also, just as a bit of trivia: The pilot makes more than the astrogator and always has.

 

[ChrisJ]

I'd like a citation on that. Obviously, Classic Traveller didn't have Virtual Crew as a thing in the main rules, so by default nothing could be automated. But there's nothing in Book 2, Book 5, or Book 8 that says that that I am aware of. But it does say that you don't need a navigator unless your ship is greater than 200 tons and you don't need an engineer unless your ship is greater than 100 tons. I no longer have my copy of the Starship Operator's Manual or other Megatraveller rules (grr...), so can't say if it got introduced then.

Classic Traveller misjumps weren't a function of a skill test. They were a random event that could happen because of bad maintenance, using unrefined fuel, or (in the 1980 version) not having enough engineers for the size of your ship.

In CT, the computer did the work. The Navigator doesn't make a skill check for plotting a jump course. That's what the Generate program and Jump programs were for. As far as I can tell, the human control was just part of the Third Imperium's 'no free willed machines' issues. The Annic Nova was able to jump on its own just fine.

Here's the Generate Program from Classic Traveller: "Generate creates a flight plan which will govern the use of the jump program. The navigator or pilot can input specific co-ordinates into the computer concerning a destination, and the generate program will create a flight plan to take the ship there. In cases where a generate program is not available, starports have single-use flight plans (in self-erasing cassettes) available for all worlds within jump range for Cr10,OOO per jump number. The generate program may be used independently and produces the required flight plan, which is then used by the computer when jump is performed."

Also, just as a bit of trivia: The pilot makes more than the astrogator and always has.

Yeah - my mistake on crew salaries - still the base salary for Astrogator is more than the base salary for Engineer - yet the roll that determines if we miss-jump is made by the Engineer.

I'm not sure when Jump Torpedoes became non-Canon - there were described in Adventure 4 - Leviathan - but those were sub 100DT, High Guard Nixed them by stating 100DT was minimum for Jump. It was perhaps in one of the Travellers Aid Issues that nixed it - it certainly seemed to be well established in many of the online debates I saw back in the 90s.

 

[Reisender]

You could take all the time in the world to answer your math test but if you don't know how to solve it, all the time in the world won't help you.
Taking more time should never be used to compensate for lack of skill IMHO, it should only be used to compensate for having to do something faster than normal. It may be used to compensate for improper tools in some circumstances as well.

 

[Vormaerin]

Jump Torpedoes were in Leviathan. They were eliminated because it was never intended to for small craft to be able to jump. It was implied in the original Book 2 from 77. It was made explicit in the Book 2's 1981 edition. May have already been fixed in High Guard, but I'm not going to double check. But the reason had nothing to do with needing a sentient mind, it was because they didn't want anything smaller than 100 tons engaged in interstellar travel, sentient pilot or not.