ISA, Vorlon, Shadows overpowered?

[skavendan]

4 damage Wicked E mines away! WooHoo short game wasn't it.

Why 1 crew? There is obviously more than 1 person on a whitestar.

I suppose you play ISA? Nice hull rating.

 

[l33tpenguin]

To recenter the discussion...

While Whitestars are shown to be Boresighted in the show, ACTA does very little to completely model the pure maneuverability and speed the Whitestars get, and the survivability that entails.

Firstly, they have, in the show, three weapon systems instead of the two given in ACTA, and possibly (I'm a bit too lazy to watch the seasons over to confirm) though unconfirmed, stealth.

Secondly, they are significantly faster than any other Capital ship in the game. ACTA does not model the vastly superior speed fighters and Whitestars have over "true" Capital ships. Whitestars flew circles around Omegas and Shadow Omegas. Literally. Even Thunderbolt Starfuries had difficulties keeping up. They were, in essence, Fighters with really big and scary weapons mounted on them, which is why they were so effective. They could kill capital ships, anti-fighter weapons couldn't really hurt them, and they were too fast for anti-capital ship weapons to hit them effectively.

Thirdly, Boresight was never an issue for the Whitestar because of the reason listed above. They were so maneuverable that Boresight was rarely, if ever a problem, and they easily strafed Capital ships. This is the primary reason the Whitestar has a Forward arc beam at the moment, to emulate or "metagame" the Whitestar's maneuverability.

Fourth, you almost never see a Whitestar decrewed in the course of a battle. It is, in the show, always crippled/destroyed before the crew is adversely effected (And the crew are usually adversely effected because of the gaping holes blasted in their ship). In ACTA, the reverse is true, where it is easier to decrew a Whitestar before you cripple it. ACTA does not emulate this for the Whitestar. Case in point, when Delenn's Whitestar is attacked, the ship is heavily damaged, crippled, which in turn decrewed it, not the other way around. The Whitestar would repair itself after the fact, but in the course of that short battle, it was crippled and rendered near inoperable before it was de-crewed.

In essence, to bring the Whitestar "more closely" to the show, you'd have to change it to something like...

White Star (Raid)
Speed: 20
Turns: SM
Damage: 4/1
Crew: 1 (Cannot be decrewed, like Technomage Pinnace)
Traits: AA, Dodge 2+, Flight Computer, SR1, AJE

Improved Neutron Laser: 18 inch boresight 2AD Beam, Triple Damage, Precise
Molecular Pulsar: 10 inch forward arc 4 AD Accurate, Double Damage, AP
Fusion Cannon/Pulsars/whatever: 12 inch forward arc 4AD Double Damage, SAP

Can I build the 'true' shadow vessel then?

Shadow Vessel (Raid - I mean, come on, they could field these things any day of the week)
Speed: 20 (They ARE the same speed, if not faster than a white star)
Turns: SM
Damage: 150
Crew: N/A
Traits: Atmospheric, Self-Repair 3D6, Shields 20/10

Molecular Slicer Beam 24 F 12AD Beam, Precise, Quad Damage (12 AD IS enough to rip a G'quan in half in one attack, think?)
Jump Point Disruptor 18 F
Fighter Dispersal Tube 30 F

Anyway, what my point is, despite wanting to make a silly powerful shadow vessel, that the whitestar as is, isn't too bad. But its beam with 2AD and F arc is too powerful while 1AD and F arc is too weak feeling. They are difficult to kill, thus depicting their speed and manuverability (as well as their super fun vorlon tech). It already goes twice the speed of the majority of capital ships, has good range and packs a punch. with a 2ad F arc beam, its a bit too much of a punch to be balanced. Rather than reworking it completely, just giving the beam boresight levels it out decently while not crippling it. It is still fast and turns on a dime, and being a raid level ship, you can deploy a bunch of them to act as their own ini sinks.

 

[skavendan]

You missed accurate off the beam, as in the show you see how fighters just die instantly to shadows.

 

[lastbesthope]

Why 1 crew? There is obviously more than 1 person on a whitestar.

Well given it can't be decrewed the number is entirely notional in his stats.

But there's probably more than 62 people on an Omega, the crew score is not a 1 to 1 mapping to warm bodies. It's a representative number.

LBH

 

[skavendan]

It would never pass "never decrewed" means pods wouldn't work on it! And as if the ISA needs anymore defensive stuff!

 

[l33tpenguin]

It would never pass "never decrewed" means pods wouldn't work on it! And as if the ISA needs anymore defensive stuff!

I don't get why whitestars wouldn't get decrewed? It makes no sense. They aren't super men that can't be killed. Why should whitestars be special in that they can't be decrewed?

You missed accurate off the beam, as in the show you see how fighters just die instantly to shadows.

Opps! thanks, good catch. Shadows should be able to pop fighters like they were swatting flys. WITH A MOLECULAR SLICER BEAM <3

 

[lastbesthope]

It would never pass "never decrewed" means pods wouldn't work on it! And as if the ISA needs anymore defensive stuff!

I don't get why whitestars wouldn't get decrewed? It makes no sense. They aren't super men that can't be killed. Why should whitestars be special in that they can't be decrewed?

The proposer cited evidence, that WS end up with no crew due to large holes in the hull, rather than leaving any MArie Celeste-esque type hulls floating around, structurally intact but with a dead crew

 

[l33tpenguin]

The proposer cited evidence, that WS end up with no crew due to large holes in the hull, rather than leaving any MArie Celeste-esque type hulls floating around, structurally intact but with a dead crew

I caught that, but its poor reasoning. Because of their very nature, white stars are more likely to be decrewed before destroyed. I mean, they are self repairing. And, unless they take single, devastating hits, their crew is going to get whittled down. Their resiliency could just be interpreted that, despite extensive damage, they are able to maintain combat effectiveness. Their hulls are vorlon and minbari technology, their crews are random humanoids. I'm put my money on vorlon hybrid technology surviving longer than a flesh and blood crew.

MArie Celeste-esque type hulls floating around

That bit made me smirk

 

[Davesaint]

Well, I will add my latecomer strength list for fleets based on many many games I have played since 2nd ed has come out

Really Weak:
Abbai
Raiders(I know, they are designed that way)

Kind of Weak:
3rd Age EA
Early EA
Narn
Drazi

Average:
Crusade EA
Brakiri
Minbari
PakMaRa
Shadows
Vorlons

Above Average:
New Gaim(Although I leave this open for discussion)
Vree
Drakh
Psi-Corp
Combined League

Far Above Average:
Centauri
Old Gaim
Dilgar - (too many holes in the fleet were plugged in 2nd Ed)

This is based on taking a competative fleet without any guilt regarding the cheesiness/beardiness of said fleet.


I have fought against every fleet on there except for the New Gaim. I placed the pure drazi fleet at slightly below average due to the pure boresight nature of the fleet. If they had more forward arc ships, they would move up the list.


Dave

 

[Burger]

You guys are missing the fact that the Molecular Pulsars, are longer range than the beam weapon. In War Without End, when they are racing to get into range of the Shadows bomb on B4, the first weapon they fire is not the beam.

 

[l33tpenguin]

You guys are missing the fact that the Molecular Pulsars, are longer range than the beam weapon. In War Without End, when they are racing to get into range of the Shadows bomb on B4, the first weapon they fire is not the beam.

You could just chalk that up to the animation team as well. *shrug* While I agree, what is shown on screen doesn't always match.

 

[GhostRecon]

The proposer cited evidence, that WS end up with no crew due to large holes in the hull, rather than leaving any MArie Celeste-esque type hulls floating around, structurally intact but with a dead crew

I caught that, but its poor reasoning. Because of their very nature, white stars are more likely to be decrewed before destroyed. I mean, they are self repairing. And, unless they take single, devastating hits, their crew is going to get whittled down. Their resiliency could just be interpreted that, despite extensive damage, they are able to maintain combat effectiveness. Their hulls are vorlon and minbari technology, their crews are random humanoids. I'm put my money on vorlon hybrid technology surviving longer than a flesh and blood crew.

Except that, throughout the show, the fragile hulls of the Whitestars lead them to be destroyed in just a few hits by nearly every Capital ship weapon shot at them. Very rarely are there Whitestars left on the field, and ones that are, are crippled, not skeleton crewed. While Self-Repair could fix that, in the SHORT CONTEXT of a battle, Self-Repair would take far too long, as the show depicts, for a Whitestar to be rendered operational again from that crippled state, and thus for decrewing to matter.

Nearly every weapon, as the show displays, that would lead a Whitestar to be decrewed would almost certainly cripple or destroy the Whitestar before that decrewing would matter. Anything that could break past the Vorlon adaptive armor, penetrating the hull, almost certainly, as displayed in the series, destroys the Whitestar before it wipes out the crew and leaves the ship intact. Omega Destroyers, for example, through the Earth Civil War, where we see Whitestars in action, destroy Whitestars in just a few hits with their Pulsar batteries, leaving few to no decrewed ships, and few crippled ones.

Regardless, my statsline was not a serious attempt, but merely a example to highlight what a more "proper" Whitestar, in tune with how the ship is shown in the series, would be like. Ideally, after all, ACTA should be depicting the series, not vice versa, regardless of how contradictory the show can be at times. Personally, I find it fine and pretty balanced.

4 damage Wicked E mines away! WooHoo short game wasn't it.

Why 1 crew? There is obviously more than 1 person on a whitestar.

I suppose you play ISA? Nice hull rating.

Actually, I am primarily a EA Crusade Era player, though I do have an ISA fleet. Go figure. I even defend the Narn. I'm crazy like that.

 

[Foxmeister]

Fourth, you almost never see a Whitestar decrewed in the course of a battle. It is, in the show, always crippled/destroyed before the crew is adversely effected (And the crew are usually adversely effected because of the gaping holes blasted in their ship).

Arguably, the same is true for virtually every ship you see "up close and personal" in the show. Often the when the ships explode, reference is made to crew getting to escape pods and abandoning ship etc. Personally I think there is a case in ACTA for being able to get a ship down to skeleton crew, but not to actually totally decrew the ship since there is no evidence in the show (AFAIK) of any ship being operable after a battle, but totally crew less (perhaps automatically lose flight computer at crew 0). All that being said, I'm not unhappy with the status quo and I'm not actually advocating any change here.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Ripple]

No crew stat doesn't mean there is no living being on the ship, just that there are not enough left to actively operate the ship. In the case of a whitestar that might be no crew, but on something like the Omega, that might very well be the last 50-60 guys, or even a 1000 guys left, but they can't get to vital areas of to man the controls.

Ripple

 

[katadder]

well if we restatting ships to how they are on the show better lower the G'quan to one damage point
that thing blows up as soon as someone points a weapon at it.

 

[Burger]

well if we restatting ships to how they are on the show better lower the G'quan to one damage point
that thing blows up as soon as someone points a weapon at it.

To be fair, 99% of the weapons pointed at it are Shadow Ships. In the 1v1 with a Primus the G'Quan does pretty good.

 

[Joe_Dracos]

There is a point to be made here, and its that you can not have a ship that acts exactly as it does in the show and have game balance. You must accept it.

..... If Chewie is a Wookie, you must accept it!

 

[GhostRecon]

There is a point to be made here, and its that you can not have a ship that acts exactly as it does in the show and have game balance. You must accept it.

..... If Chewie is a Wookie, you must accept it!

And that's my point! ...In a more roundabout way, of course...

 

[lastbesthope]

You guys are missing the fact that the Molecular Pulsars, are longer range than the beam weapon. In War Without End, when they are racing to get into range of the Shadows bomb on B4, the first weapon they fire is not the beam.

You could just chalk that up to the animation team as well. *shrug* While I agree, what is shown on screen doesn't always match.

They can get a better firing spread with the pulsars, better chance of hitting something than with one beam salvo?

LBH

 

[l33tpenguin]

well if we restatting ships to how they are on the show better lower the G'quan to one damage point
that thing blows up as soon as someone points a weapon at it.

To be fair, 99% of the weapons pointed at it are Shadow Ships. In the 1v1 with a Primus the G'Quan does pretty good.

I have to be honest in saying that watching G'Quans get carved up by the shadows was one of the most awesome moments to watch in all of Babylon 5. Not becuase it was narns getting dead, I like the Narn and think the G'quan is a beautiful ship. But the whole scene was Brilliant and well done. Very moving, with the mixture of G'kar praying, the shifting music and the chaos as the shadows ripped into the narn fleet.

There is a point to be made here, and its that you can not have a ship that acts exactly as it does in the show and have game balance. You must accept it.

..... If Chewie is a Wookie, you must accept it!

Ship balance and accuracy to the show ARE possible. But not with the current point system.