ISA, Vorlon, Shadows overpowered?

the carrier is no better than a WS gunship in firepower really and cannot turn as well. it gains a raid point of WS fighters.
so for a war point you get 1 battle and one raid equivalent. not free to me.
on the accurate thing - porfatis dont get that but they do get AF1 which basically with range 2 gives a nice anti-fighter weapon


Ok so what are we going to compare every single race in the game this could turn into a long debate?
Since the game is suppose to be reasonably balanced I will stick to using EA/PSI for my comparisons!

It does have an increase in firepower in the form of it's P&S arcs and as you pointed out that gives enhanced durability as a 6-4 crit wont render the ship weaponless.

And by your previous point that you should tripple the HP for AA then it has 96 damage capacity pretty high for a war class, dodge and 1D6 repair. If it's in the thick of it then it can make good use of it's multi arc fire, alternatively you say it's hard to move I say it doesn't need to be that zippy as it has P&S arc weapons.

so we have an ISA fleet with a Gaim queen - which btw can only fire 2 e-mines and that every other turn, much better to take a g'karith.
it also has an escort to protect all 3 WSs and thats a skirmish so probably 2 bluestars too. really doesnt seem overpowered for a 5pt fleet.
3 WSs that can do the major damage, 2 bluestars for harrassment and a Gaim queen for support.
the nolo'tar and gaim queen dont have dodge so are easier targets to take.


G'karith? really I don't think so unless the Queen is worth Double VPS, as the Queen has better range a T if things evade the front arc, longer range yes it can only fire both lots every other turn. But it doesn't make you fire them both in 1 go you can fire one in turn 1 and one in turn 2 and have a continuse barage of Emines that are about as affective as the G'karith. Also the Queen has hull 6 Vs the G'kariths 5 value, Interceptors and as if that wasn't enough to make you agree the queen is the better option it has a swarm of fighters/suiciders to throat at you and a few pods. Makes it far more harder to deal with in my opinion. G'kariths shorter range put's in the direct line of fire and thus it would get destroyed!

Interceptors: ok they cant stop beams, but try fighting dilgar - interceptors 2 will stop the 1st few bolter shots, and then give you a save of 6+ against every other bolter. the dodge is 50/50 against them all.

Again referrence to a race I don't play or collect and frankly no1 in my gaming group see's the apeal of them. ( I just don't like the look of the models or I might have considered them)

Dodge never gets worse which is unrealistic where as interceptors get worse which is realistic!

Shields: once they are gone they come back in the end phase to a degree but they still protect you from crits for the 1st few shots.

Again non race specific to my point here. Shields can be an issue for anyone but put enough into them and they stop working unlike dodge.

BTW are queens worth double VPS as allies?
 
I always find this kind of discussion fascinating as you get a real taste of people’s range of experience. In my opinion, most people have a certain favored style of play and their success depends quite a bit on whether or not they have selected a fleet that plays well in their style and what fleets they commonly play against (the Vree, for example, don’t seem nearly so nimble if you typically play against ISA or Shadows). Few people really have a chance to play several games with several fleets against several different fleets. I know for myself that I have more trouble in tournaments than regular play as I do not have as much experience against the fleets that show up and the players that play them. I am keenly aware that some of the players on these boards have a lot more experience then I do. That being said, I have noticed some trends toward how people feel the fleets rate overall.

Weak Fleets –
The Abbai and the Raiders (by design) are generally considered below average and I think most people think that the Abbai could use a bump up.

Weak/Mid Fleets –
Earth Force Third Age is considered by many in this category (though many people probably feel that they are just fine), Drazi, Pak’ma’ra (although their plasma web is often referred to with some dread, I think that most people consider them to be just a hair below average).

Middle Fleets –
Earth Force Crusade, and Brakiri – both of these fleets can succeed or flounder depending on how they are played, but there does not seem to be any complaint about these fleets. The Vorlons also probably belong here, but there are a small number of people who feel that they are over-powered.

Strong Fleets –
Dilgar, Centauri, ISA, Vree – The Centauri and Dilgar fleets both have a substantial range of options that can vary the way that they play and both have aggressive attack oriented ships that are quite effective. The ISA and the Vree are maneuver fleets with excellent patrol level sink ships. I find it interesting that those that hate the ISA complain about their dodge and adaptive armor, which really brings them up to average defensively, but rarely mention their strongest defensive trait which is their maneuverability. (Personally, I would say make the WS beams bore-sight and make the BS bore-sight and be done with it).

This brings me to my favorite category - the fleets that are too strong or too weak depending on who you talk to. The interesting part is not that there is a range of opinions, but rather, how adamantly people feel about the universality of their experiences. I have heard people aggressively argue both sides of the following fleets:
Earth Early Years, Minbari, Narn, New Gaim (OK, I include them on spec. as the discussions have only just begun), Shadows, Drakh, and Psi Corps. Of course, all of these fleets have strengths and exploitable weaknesses and depending on how it goes, people form very strong opinions very quickly. I personally feel that the Narn are below average and that the Shadows are a bit over the top, but I am also aware that my style favors maneuver based fleets. Other people complain adamantly about Narn e-mine spamming. The great thing is that both sides tend to be correct – in their core group.

It’s interesting…
 
I never said AA triples the damage points, adds maybe 50%, sometimes a bit higher depending on what people hit you with. I would put a WS carrier on around 65-70 damage equivalent on a hull 5 ship. compare that to your EA war level carrier that has 4 times the fighters and 95 damage plus huge broadsides and a nice command bonus. firepower wise the WS carrier is better off but it will soon lose its fighters to massed starfuries that have init +5 aganst init +2 so get to pick the fights.

you never said which fleets you used so have to show all options. as for bringing up other traits and comparing to other fleets you also said WS fighters are the only ones with accurate weapons.

but psi-corps get a fighter that can match the WS fighter for dogfighting and even if it loses gets a 4+ save. psi-corps also get 4 of these on a raid ship. it also gets its 4+ save against e-mines, the same 4+ save you are complaining about.

why is dodge not getting worse unrealistic? a ship can dodge as much as it can dodge. the WS is shown to be a ship that dodges in the show. and being an EA player against 1 WS you only have to worry about the beam as the pulsars from a single WS wont get through your interceptors. also most your secondaries are in range when a WS gets in range for its secondaries.

if you bothered with ISa try taking narn, brakiri, gaim, pak and their e-mines and see how easy it is to drop a bluestar/whitestar.
 
skavendan

Your last post on Page 1 says the WS Carrier can: CBD, Dodge, and Recover fighters?

Check your rules. I don't have my book handy as I am at work, but recovery requires no special actions taken that turn, same as launching. (unless I am completely mis-remembering)

You're complaining about Psi Corps v. ISA.

The tactics behind each fleet are completely different. Gaim are a very good swarm fleet, but in the games I have played my Psi Corps have always one the fighter game. The 7 Mothership thing says "in service as of XXXX." So any game or campaign set before that date, yes there should be a restriction on the number. If it's a campaign though, set it after that date and all is good.

My ISA, that I have played since the game came out in 1e, are 50/50. Almost all WS deaths come from crewing, or really good crits. It happens. If your ISA player is whipping you everytime, maybe you should reverse fleets for an experiment? See what that player does with your Psi Corps and see what you can do with their ISA.

Edit: Also, comms distruptors require a CQ check to even be able to attempt a SA, even if it would normally be automatic. (Again, no book handy could be mis-remembering it but I doubt it)

And yes, Queens are always worth double VPs. Imagine a campaign marking a Queen as worth double VPs...
 
Humbaba & katadder I find all debate interesting we all have are own view points on things and sometimes you have to think out side to box to see a better way to do things so buy talking about these things we could up with better ways to handle them.

I never said AA triples the damage points, adds maybe 50%, sometimes a bit higher depending on what people hit you with. I would put a WS carrier on around 65-70 damage equivalent on a hull 5 ship. compare that to your EA war level carrier that has 4 times the fighters and 95 damage plus huge broadsides and a nice command bonus. firepower wise the WS carrier is better off but it will soon lose its fighters to massed starfuries that have init +5 aganst init +2 so get to pick the fights.

you never said which fleets you used so have to show all options. as for bringing up other traits and comparing to other fleets you also said WS fighters are the only ones with accurate weapons.

Sorry for the Miscommunication I thought I made it clear I was PSI Corp. I find the lack of good ships available without including ALLIES annoying as the patrol/skirmish aren't up for fighting and the war level is under powered. Also find it moronic that the Mothership is raid thus on average a campaign will contain more Motherships then there is in the actual series.

but psi-corps get a fighter that can match the WS fighter for dogfighting and even if it loses gets a 4+ save. psi-corps also get 4 of these on a raid ship. it also gets its 4+ save against e-mines, the same 4+ save you are complaining about.

Psi Corps shadow fight is an interesting ship, but I will have to correct you here. Firstly they only get the 4+ additional save from dogfighting & anti-fighter it does not work against E-mines to the letter of the rule!

Also the +4 to dogfight ship is a shadow hybrid ship it does not get the Psi rule saying it gets an additional save.

Whitestar fights with a carrier on the table get +5 but why dogfight? when you have a 3AD accurate fighter with superior speed!

why is dodge not getting worse unrealistic? a ship can dodge as much as it can dodge. the WS is shown to be a ship that dodges in the show. and being an EA player against 1 WS you only have to worry about the beam as the pulsars from a single WS wont get through your interceptors. also most your secondaries are in range when a WS gets in range for its secondaries.

If you want to talk show comparisons you never see a ship servive more than 1 beam hit (part from shadows/vorlons) but this is game not a show!

if you bothered with ISA try taking narn, brakiri, gaim, pak and their e-mines and see how easy it is to drop a bluestar/whitestar.

Am well aware of there weakness is breaching pods / emines.

My primary point is there is nothing they can not do be it with an allied ship or one they have there rules cover everything. How in a game is that fair / balanced.

If the Psi Corp is it's own race / empire it really needs a better range of ships or more access to the EA ships to allow it cope with other better tuned empires.
 
I never mentioned shadow fighters. and WS fighters are actually dogfight +3 the same as your black omegas but without the 4+ save.

yes the WS fighter is faster, but psi-corps have higher init and in a war level game will even have shadow fighters which are even better dogfighters. just take yourself an avenger as an ally and you can stay better than WS fighters.

one of the reasons for psi-corps not having many ships is they are black ops. IMO the allies thing should be reversed. psi-corps should not be a fleet on their own, they should be a list of ships that EA fleets can use to augment their own as a black ops fleet or psi-corps fleet would never happen.
 
skavendan said:
Humbaba & katadder why is dodge not getting worse unrealistic? a ship can dodge as much as it can dodge. the WS is shown to be a ship that dodges in the show. and being an EA player against 1 WS you only have to worry about the beam as the pulsars from a single WS wont get through your interceptors. also most your secondaries are in range when a WS gets in range for its secondaries.

If you want to talk show comparisons you never see a ship servive more than 1 beam hit (part from shadows/vorlons) but this is game not a show!

When the Primus and G'Quan duke it out, the Primus takes a beam or two before it goes down.

That said, all things like the show, the Shadows would have a 30' beam, quad damage, precice, accurate, 20AD.
 
armbarred said:
skavendan

Your last post on Page 1 says the WS Carrier can: CBD, Dodge, and Recover fighters?

Check your rules. I don't have my book handy as I am at work, but recovery requires no special actions taken that turn, same as launching. (unless I am completely mis-remembering)

I know the only Special action to launch fighters under is scramble scramble, but I didn't know about recovery. I will check this.

You're complaining about Psi Corps v. ISA.

Not really am complainning about the combinations they can get at ease where as other empires have to try and find alternatives rather just go ok i'll take this this and this and then an ally sorted no obvious weakness!

The tactics behind each fleet are completely different. Gaim are a very good swarm fleet, but in the games I have played my Psi Corps have always one the fighter game. The 7 Mothership thing says "in service as of XXXX." So any game or campaign set before that date, yes there should be a restriction on the number. If it's a campaign though, set it after that date and all is good.

Don't you think it's abit odd the motherships where created to give them independance and they aren't even capable of repair / recovering fighters?

My ISA, that I have played since the game came out in 1e, are 50/50. Almost all WS deaths come from crewing, or really good crits. It happens. If your ISA player is whipping you everytime, maybe you should reverse fleets for an experiment? See what that player does with your Psi Corps and see what you can do with their ISA.

I've also told him if we did this I would just fly upto him and skin dance him as I have no intentions of playing the whiter than white empire! my win lose is around the 50/50 mark I think

Edit: Also, comms distruptors require a CQ check to even be able to attempt a SA, even if it would normally be automatic. (Again, no book handy could be mis-remembering it but I doubt it)

Something else for me to check

And yes, Queens are always worth double VPs. Imagine a campaign marking a Queen as worth double VPs...

I should probably re-evaluate the Queen as a choice then since shes worth a battle point dead! Some useful comments thank
 
katadder said:
I never mentioned shadow fighters. and WS fighters are actually dogfight +3 the same as your black omegas but without the 4+ save.

yes the WS fighter is faster, but psi-corps have higher init and in a war level game will even have shadow fighters which are even better dogfighters. just take yourself an avenger as an ally and you can stay better than WS fighters.

one of the reasons for psi-corps not having many ships is they are black ops. IMO the allies thing should be reversed. psi-corps should not be a fleet on their own, they should be a list of ships that EA fleets can use to augment their own as a black ops fleet or psi-corps fleet would never happen.

Can't argue with that 5 ship classes does not make a fleet!
 
l33tpenguin said:
skavendan said:
Humbaba & katadder why is dodge not getting worse unrealistic? a ship can dodge as much as it can dodge. the WS is shown to be a ship that dodges in the show. and being an EA player against 1 WS you only have to worry about the beam as the pulsars from a single WS wont get through your interceptors. also most your secondaries are in range when a WS gets in range for its secondaries.

If you want to talk show comparisons you never see a ship servive more than 1 beam hit (part from shadows/vorlons) but this is game not a show!

When the Primus and G'Quan duke it out, the Primus takes a beam or two before it goes down.

That said, all things like the show, the Shadows would have a 30' beam, quad damage, precice, accurate, 20AD.

Na just make the shadows accurate Delen does say they never miss unless they do it on purpose but then later in the series they do miss so lol
 
My views on the fleets from playing with and /or against

Centauri - powerful but prob not broken
ISA - same
Minbari - same
Vorlons - same
League - very powerful together - much more than the indiviual fleets

Shadows - very good but need something in the lower PL's that actualy worth using
EA - all pretty good
PSI - pretty good

Narn - a bit weak - esp at Battle,

Abbia - very weak
 
I have never played ISA but my experience with Shadows and Vorlons vs my Dilgar is that I'd rather play against them than most other fleets. With my Centauri its more difficult but I have no big hassles exept that you lose your bigger ships more easily. My biggest worry for the Dilgar are the EA via all the interceptors and for the Centauri its Minbari mostly.
 
skavendan said:
I've also told him if we did this I would just fly upto him and skin dance him as I have no intentions of playing the whiter than white empire! my win lose is around the 50/50 mark I think
Wait...
You're at a 50/50 win/Loss against the ISA and you're complaining about how Uber-Powerful they are? Suggests to me that your ISA opponent(s) should be complaining about how uber-powerful your Psi-Corps are then.

Seriously, I may really disagree with hiff about the ISA, but at least when I read his posts I don't come away with the impression of "WAAAH! WAAAH He wins sometimes! Waaah!"
 
Taran said:
skavendan said:
I've also told him if we did this I would just fly upto him and skin dance him as I have no intentions of playing the whiter than white empire! my win lose is around the 50/50 mark I think
Wait...
You're at a 50/50 win/Loss against the ISA and you're complaining about how Uber-Powerful they are? Suggests to me that your ISA opponent(s) should be complaining about how uber-powerful your Psi-Corps are then.

Seriously, I may really disagree with hiff about the ISA, but at least when I read his posts I don't come away with the impression of "WAAAH! WAAAH He wins sometimes! Waaah!"

Since you didn't post this topic am not even going to comment, your post is not productive at all. Nore will I reply to other posts by you in this topic.
 
LOL! That last reply is like, "LALALALA I can't hear you"....
Complaining about a fleet when you have a 50/50 win/lose ratio is just laughable.
 
Burger said:
LOL! That last reply is like, "LALALALA I can't hear you"....
Complaining about a fleet when you have a 50/50 win/lose ratio is just laughable.

Unless that fleet is being commanded by monkies and they still managed to beat you 50% of the time.
 
Ok, the main reason why I originally created this post was because my BM (and that is not short for Bowel Movement) was thinking of giving vorlons a few more varients to work with but also dumbing down existing ships somewhat. We have talked about it but I just want to see what kind of reaction I will get from you guys whom I hold a lot of stock in your opinion.

And Joe, this is not to get anyone on my side, just to get more information and broader opinions. I also think it is healthy to get more that just our own groups opinions.

Please remember these are works in progress and tweeking/playtesting will be needed. All of the varients were created by my BM and the tweeks to the normal ships we have both talked about.

here it goes:

Vorlon Pirahna Patrol
Speed: 10 Damage: 6 Craft: -
Turn: 2/90 Crew: - Special: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Anti-fighter 1, Advanced Jump Engine, Flight Computer, Self-Repair 1
Hull: 5 Troops: - Inservice: Until 2261

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Discharge Gun 8 F 4 Beam, Precise

Vorlon Swarm Patrol (3 per wing)
Speed: 10 Damage: - Dogfight: 2+
Turn: SM Crew: - Special: Fighter, Dodge 2+
Hull: 5 Troops: - Inservice: whenever

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Disassemble Contact T - Special

*When a Swarm Wins a Dogfight it converts the enemy fighter into another swarm. When a swarm is in base contact with a ship it will deal 2 damage and cause 1 critical. When the ship is reduced to 0 damage (even after it is depopulated) it will creat another swarm for every 5 damage points the ship has. Only Anti-fighter attacks are allowedwhen a swarm is in base contact with a ship. You may only get 2 Swarms in contact with ships with small bases and 4 in contact with ships with large bases.

Vorlon Frigate Raid
Speed: 10 Damage: 18 Craft: -
Turn: 1/90 Crew: - Special: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Anti-fighter 1, Advanced Jump Engine, Flight Computer, Self-Repair 1
Hull: 5 Troops: - Inservice: Until 2261

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Discharge Gun 20 F 4 Beam, Double Damage, Precise

Vorlon Carrier Battle
Speed: 10 Damage: 30 Craft: 10 Vorlon Heavy Fighters
Turn: 1/45 Crew: - Special: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Anti-fighter 2, Advanced Jump Engine, Carrier 4, Command +2, Fleet Carrier, Flight Computer, Self-Repair 1d6
Hull: 5 Troops: - Inservice: Until 2261

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Discharge Cannon 18 F 3 Beam, Double Damage, Precise

Vorlon Destroyer Battle
Speed: 9 Damage: 30 Craft: -
Turn: 2/45 Crew: - Special: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Anti-fighter 2, Advanced Jump Engine, Flight Computer, Self-Repair 1D6
Hull: 5 Troops: - Inservice: Until 2261

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Discharge Gun 24 F 6 Beam, Double Damage, Precise

Vorlon Light Cruiser War
Speed: 7 Damage: 45 Craft: -
Turn: 1/45 Crew: - Special: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Anti-fighter 3, Advanced Jump Engine, Flight Computer, Self-Repair 2d6
Hull: 5 Troops: - Inservice: Until 2261

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Lightning Cannon 30 F 6 Beam, Triple Damage, Precise

Vorlon Heavy Cruiser Cruiser Armageddon
Speed: 5 Damage: 90 Craft: -
Turn: 1/45 Crew: - Special: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Anti-fighter 4, Advanced Jump Engine, Flight Computer, Lumbering,Self-Repair 3d6
Hull: 5 Troops: - Inservice: Until 2261

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Super Lightning Cannon 30 F 8 Beam, Quad Damage, Precise
Discharge Gun 24 F 12 Beam, Double Damage, Precise

Vorlon Dreadnought Ancient
Speed: 4 Damage: 150 Craft: 4 Vorlon fighters
Turn: 1/45 Crew: - Special: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Anti-fighter 4, Advanced Jump Engine, Flight Computer, Lumbering, Self-Repair 4d6
Hull: 6 Troops: - Inservice: Until 2261

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Super Lightning Cannon 30 F 8 Beam, Quad Damage, Precise
Lightning Cannon 30 F 6 Beam, Triple Damage, Precise
Discharge Gun 24 F 12 Beam, Double Damage, Precise

Vorlon Planet Killer 5 Ancient
Speed: 2 Damage: 650 Craft: 12 Vorlon fighters
Turn: 1/45 Crew: - Special: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Anti-fighter 10, Advanced Jump Engine, Flight Computer, Huge Hangers 4, Carrier 4, Lumbering, Self-Repair 4d6
Hull: 6 Troops: - Inservice: Until 2261

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Mega Lightning Cannon 15 B 20 Beam, Quad Damage, Precise
Super Lightning Cannon 30 F 10 Beam, Quad Damage, Precise
Lightning Cannon 30 F 8 Beam, Triple Damage, Precise
Discharge Gun 24 F 12 Beam, Double Damage, Precise
Discharge Gun 24 F 12 Beam, Double Damage, Precise
Discharge Gun 24 P 8 Beam, Double Damage, Precise
Discharge Gun 24 S 8 Beam, Double Damage, Precise
Discharge Gun 24 A 6 Beam, Double Damage, Precise

The swarm fleet was in the fluff and we thought there needed to be a way to incorperate them in the game.

Anyways the, destroyer and the L cruiser are the ships that took a nerfing, as for the varients just be honest with what you think.

thanks
Marco
 
Just running my playtester's eye over your ships:

Marco Raimeous said:
Vorlon Pirahna Patrol
Speed: 10 Damage: 6 Craft: -
Turn: 2/90 Crew: - Special: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Anti-fighter 1, Advanced Jump Engine, Flight Computer, Self-Repair 1
Hull: 5 Troops: - Inservice: Until 2261

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Discharge Gun 8 F 4 Beam, Precise

No patrol ship has 4AD of beam. 2AD would be much more balanced.

Vorlon Swarm *When a Swarm Wins a Dogfight it converts the enemy fighter into another swarm. When a swarm is in base contact with a ship it will deal 2 damage and cause 1 critical. When the ship is reduced to 0 damage (even after it is depopulated) it will creat another swarm for every 5 damage points the ship has. Only Anti-fighter attacks are allowedwhen a swarm is in base contact with a ship. You may only get 2 Swarms in contact with ships with small bases and 4 in contact with ships with large bases.

Interesting.

I suggest you use the stem contact rules from the current S&P. Also, rather than have them doing automatic damage - have them doing 1AD, Double Damage, Precise. Make this uninterceptable. This means that it will be harder to consume ships with higher hulls, and it will take a while for the swarm to get through shields.


Vorlon Frigate Raid
Speed: 10 Damage: 18 Craft: -
Turn: 1/90 Crew: - Special: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Anti-fighter 1, Advanced Jump Engine, Flight Computer, Self-Repair 1
Hull: 5 Troops: - Inservice: Until 2261

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Discharge Gun 20 F 4 Beam, Double Damage, Precise

You've dropped the damage on your destroyer. But two of these are currently better than a Destroyer. If you were using the official Destroyer, this would be about right. I suggest you drop the damage to 15, or the beam AD to 3.

Vorlon Carrier Battle
Speed: 10 Damage: 30 Craft: 10 Vorlon Heavy Fighters
Turn: 1/45 Crew: - Special: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Anti-fighter 2, Advanced Jump Engine, Carrier 4, Command +2, Fleet Carrier, Flight Computer, Self-Repair 1d6
Hull: 5 Troops: - Inservice: Until 2261

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Discharge Cannon 18 F 3 Beam, Double Damage, Precise

Looks okay.

Vorlon Heavy Cruiser Cruiser Armageddon
Speed: 5 Damage: 90 Craft: -
Turn: 1/45 Crew: - Special: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Anti-fighter 4, Advanced Jump Engine, Flight Computer, Lumbering,Self-Repair 3d6
Hull: 5 Troops: - Inservice: Until 2261

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Super Lightning Cannon 30 F 8 Beam, Quad Damage, Precise
Discharge Gun 24 F 12 Beam, Double Damage, Precise

You toned down the oher Vorlon ships, but felt the need to increase the weapons on the biggest, baddest ship-killer in the game?

Vorlon Dreadnought Ancient
Speed: 4 Damage: 150 Craft: 4 Vorlon fighters
Turn: 1/45 Crew: - Special: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Anti-fighter 4, Advanced Jump Engine, Flight Computer, Lumbering, Self-Repair 4d6
Hull: 6 Troops: - Inservice: Until 2261

Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Super Lightning Cannon 30 F 8 Beam, Quad Damage, Precise
Lightning Cannon 30 F 6 Beam, Triple Damage, Precise
Discharge Gun 24 F 12 Beam, Double Damage, Precise

There is no way I would take one of these instead of two heavy cruisers.
 
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