Is the vorlon planet killer underclassed?

[Marco Raimeous]

I was having a discusion today about the vorlon planet killer with these stats, and was thinking it it might be underpowered for a 5pt ancient.

Vorlon Planet Killer
Speed: 2
Turn: 1/45
Hull: 5
Damage: 750
Craft: 10 Vorlon Fighters
Special: Adaptive Armour, Advanced Anti-fighter 10, Advanced Jump Enigine, Carrier 2, Fleet Carrier, flight Computer, Huge hangers 4, Lumbering, Self repair 5d6+15

Weapon..................Range..Arc..AD..Special
Mega Lightning Cannon...15.....B....20..Beam, Precise, Quad Damage
Super Lighting Cannon...30.....F....10..Beam, Precise, Quad Damage
Lightning Cannon........24.....F....8...Beam, Precise, Triple Damage
Discharge Gun...........20.....F....12..Beam, Precise, Double Damage
Discharge Gun...........15.....F....8...Beam, Precise, Double Damage
Discharge Gun...........15.....P....8...Beam, Precise, Double Damage
Discharge Gun...........15.....S....8...Beam, Precise, Double Damage
Discharge Gun...........15.....A....8...Beam, Precise, Double Damage

Now this is a 5 ANCIENT level priority ship (equivalent of 40 battle level ships) so I did some calculating.

as far as damage:
it has 750 x2 (AA) which is 1500/ 40 destroyers at 35x2=70 a piece / x 40 is 1400 so it's doing fine here. (about 41.5 battle points of health)

Weapons:
Has a battle level gun out of every arc, (plus 2AD but minus 9" of destroyer weapon) so 4 Battle points worth of fire here.

Discharge Gun...........20.....F....12..Beam, Precise, Double Damage
which is double two destroyers so about 2 battle points worth of beam

Lightning Cannon........24.....F....8...Beam, Precise, Triple Damage
I would say this would be equivalent of a light cruiser weapon so 2 more battle points

Super Lighting Cannon...30.....F....10..Beam, Precise, Quad Damage
Almost twice two light cruiser wepons so I will give it 4 Battle level points

Mega Lightning Cannon...15.....B....20..Beam, Precise, Quad Damage
To be generous, it has double the AD of the last but half the range and BS
but I will still give it 4 war points worth, AKA 8 battle

Carrier 2, Fleet Carrier, Huge hangers 4,
This means 4 transports = 1 battle
10 fighters = less that .5 of a battle

Total is 21 points of battle armament vs. 40 points of battle armament which it roughly should have.

now I know this is very rough math and I know it doesn't always stack double when going up a priority level but the planet killer is missing some major fire power in my opinion or should be down graded to 4 or 3 ancient points. Am I missing something, also criting this thing could be devastating and an opponent having 40 points of battle means you will rarely get to fire that BS weapon at anything.

What is your opinion, add more guns, bump the priority down or just right the way it is?

 

[Marco Raimeous]

sorry math is way off,40 destroyers have the health of 2800 (70 x 40 = 2800 damage)

so not only is it half under in weapon power but half damage as well.

 

[l33tpenguin]

The Planet Killer is one of those 'You wouldn't buy this except for a scenario' type ships (as is, imo, anything labeled 'Ancient'). People WANT to play 'Save our world from the Vorlon Planet Killer' so they need stats for it. Obviously its not something that is going to be used in regular game play.

Would you ever really just buy a Vorlon PK? No... its just not logical (although it would be ballsy). But would you like to put together a scenario where you have to take down the powerful Planet Killer and its escort fleet? Of course! And, of course the numbers aren't going to be equal 1:1.

 

[blackphoenix]

Agreed, should only be scenario based, but still, why would it have any other guns than the planet cracker?

Ok, it would probably have your basic anti-fighter stuff but its not like this thing ever goes anywhere unescorted.



My basic point is: Its a weapon to destroy planets, that is its entire purpose, its not some massive dreadnought/carrier/ubership.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Agreed, should only be scenario based, but still, why would it have any other guns than the planet cracker?

Ok, it would probably have your basic anti-fighter stuff but its not like this thing ever goes anywhere unescorted.



My basic point is: Its a weapon to destroy planets, that is its entire purpose, its not some massive dreadnought/carrier/ubership.

The Death Star was designed around one big super laser to blow up planets. but it also contained an entier city base of troops, squadrons of fighters and enough firepower to engage whole fleets.

Just because it was designed to blow up planets, doesn't mean you have to let all that power go to waste.

It'd be like never using your Home Theater to listen to music, or your PC to do anything besides play World of Warcraft...
er...

 

[blackphoenix]

The Death Star was designed around one big super laser to blow up planets. but it also contained an entier city base of troops, squadrons of fighters and enough firepower to engage whole fleets.

Just because it was designed to blow up planets, doesn't mean you have to let all that power go to waste.

It'd be like never using your Home Theater to listen to music, or your PC to do anything besides play World of Warcraft...
er...

Based on what we have seen of the PK in the show and my previous experience with it in B5wars I just see it as a large gun. The ship would be packed with the best vorlon shield tech, armor, and generators for the gun.

The Death Star could take on fleets with its primary gun, which I'm sure this thread could seriously derail with B5 versus Star Wars tech, but the PK cannot do the same.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Based on what we have seen of the PK in the show and my previous experience with it in B5wars I just see it as a large gun. The ship would be packed with the best vorlon shield tech, armor, and generators for the gun.

The Death Star could take on fleets with its primary gun, which I'm sure this thread could seriously derail with B5 versus Star Wars tech, but the PK cannot do the same.

The first Death Star was incapable of targeting individual ships with its primary weapon. Of course, I only referred to it in principal. It was a 'Planet Killer' that also had a battery of weapons at its disposal.

While I'm not sure if it is 'canon' the B5 Tech guide lists the PK as having an array of weapons.

http://www.b5tech.com/vorlon/vorlonships/vorlonplanetkiller.html

Googling 'Vorlon Planet Killer' results in several variations, all listing multiple weapon systems.

As for being able to SEE a weapon system on it... its freaking huge. You are as likely to see a weapon system on it as you are to see one on a model of Babylon 5.

Also, its unknown whether or not the main battery of the Vorlon PK can be brought to bare against a ship. It very well can, however it has not been seen in footage.

 

[blackphoenix]

You could certainly be right, I just recall JMS calling B5WARS/AOG stuff canon at the time and the b5wars PK has no other weapons.

 

[Ripple]

I have to agree with the it's a big gun camp... we had several other takes on this ship here on the forum. I think the best had it as a multi-turn arming beam, sort of super slow loading... We see the ship in combat and it doesn't fire any other weapon, despite being surrounded by good targets and the fleet calling for help. Pretty good evidence that it's effectively unarmed in regular combat, or at the very least slow firing enough it wants to save the big shot for the planet. It's a tool not a combat ship.

Now if you wanted to say that the Vorlons had built other ships on the same hull, say your supercarrier... I could certainly see that, and you have avoided contradicting previous incarnations.

Just yank the planet cracker and replace with your huge hangers and carrier and call it ancient 1 or 2.

Ripple

 

[Green_Knight]

i would also prefer it to be more "scenario".

Maybe simply getting the whoopass of hits and keeping the Anti-Fighter,
but ditching all weapons except the main gun which should have a
simple statline like:

Super Ligthninggun:
Boredsight, Super Slow Loading (2 turns)
destroys all ships caught in the beam (no rolls required) (which has unlimited range)

 

[inq101]

No turns (needs a special order to use 1 45' turn)
PK gun plus no more than defensive guns.
PK should have a gravity well.
Planet Killer Lightening Gun
Range 15, Arc F, AD X, Special Super slow loading, Super-beam (Pick a point within range. Draw a 1" wide line between the PK and that point. Any ship along that line may make one attempt to dodge. If they can't or if they fail the ship is destroyed. If a planet is hit it counts as destroyed, becomes a dead world, any ships in the planets atmosphere are destroyed)

I'm assuming you put it's cost as 5 Ancient because thats what it took to kill it. As I remember it the Ancients killed it quite quickly (bloody swarm fleets). Cost should be 1-2 Ancient Pretty much all of that should be the gun.

Tom

 

[Marco Raimeous]

assuming that the planet killer has more than just its main gun, (and I know some of you may disagree) are the particular stats of this ship overclassed, just right, or underclassed to be considered a 5 point ancient.

The reason being is that in the campaign I am in, the vorlons have this planet killer as their imobile "station" however I am not convinced it is worthy of 5 ancient points.

What modifications would you use to make a proper vorlon station?

 

[Triggy]

As ridiculous as it would be to have something equal to all 5 Ancients in battlefield ability (when they destroyed one so quickly), my comments will be limited solely to battlefield effectiveness costed as you prescribe:

The firepower is about right actually. The main gun is about half of your fireppower but should be able to kill an Ancient in a single hit if it can line one up!

Defensively it's massively over the top. Bring back its Damage score to about 420 and you'd have a fairly balanced ship overall!

Your main misconception is that firepower and toughness both double for each PL increase. In fact, it tends to double for every two PL increases you have. Try it for almost any other ship in the game and you'll find the toughness and the firepower roughly double if you go up two PLs.

 

[Shadow Queen]

the death star could not target fighters with its super laser, but it could target larger ships Return of the Jedi

 

[No. 1 Bear]

i feel the main weapon should be octo damage, the boresighted one.

 

[l33tpenguin]

The biggest reason I believe it would have additional weaponry is: Why not? Why would you build a ship that large (it should be larger than the stated '5 miles' or whatever in the show... it cast its shadow over a FLEET of vorlon ships and could eclips the sun over Centuri Prime at a reasonable orbit) and not put more weapons on it? Its a waste anytime you aren't blowing up planets. Stick a lightning gun on it and shoot stuff when its not being used to turn someones homeworld to dust. Obviously it has enough power to support multiple batteries.

To actually crack a planet, much less destroy it in one fantastic cinematic event, requires mroe energy than the sun has put out in the past couple thousand years. Its a lot of effort. And you aren't going to do anything with that energy between shots?

I was gonna comment on its 'over/under poweredness' but Triggy pretty much took care of that

 

[skavendan]

I feel it should have one main gun and the hit should be as if it was a beam = energy mine, This gives you one awesome gun that can hit grouped up targets F arc.

 

[l33tpenguin]

It could be made different form e-mines, but still interesting.

When using its primary weapon, the Vorlon Planet Killer can fire no other weapons that round.

Instead of targetting a ship, the player designates a point along its boresight, up to the maximum range of the weapon. Any ship whose base is within 1 inch of either side of the path of the beam.

 

[Marco Raimeous]

The firepower is about right actually. The main gun is about half of your firepower but should be able to kill an Ancient in a single hit if it can line one up!

Defensively it's massively over the top. Bring back its Damage score to about 420 and you'd have a fairly balanced ship overall!

Your main misconception is that firepower and toughness both double for each PL increase. In fact, it tends to double for every two PL increases you have. Try it for almost any other ship in the game and you'll find the toughness and the firepower roughly double if you go up two PLs.

#1 comment
regarding the firepower being right. I am just going by vorlon ships because the planet killer is a vorlon ship and carry the same traits.

Destroyer 6 AD of DD/Pre/beam 24"

next level light cruiser 6 AD of QD/Pre/beam 30"

next is heavy cruiser 6 AD of QD/Pre/beam 30" and 10 AD of DD/Pre/beam 24"

This looks very double firepower to me, and because it is only the front arc it is very straight forward to calculate.

thus in my opinion, this planet killers firepower could be considered underrated severly.

#2 comment

health is also taken from other vorlon ships due to the specific dynamic of having AA but no crew.

Destroyer 35 damage

Light cruiser 55 damage

heavy cruiser 90 damage

now this obviously is not doubling each level but the Heavy cruiser has about 3x as much damage as the destroyer. By the same system an ancient 5 should have (90 x3 for a 2 point ancient = 270 x2 for four pts= 540 plus another ancient level about 150ish = 690 damage. very rough but in the same ballpark.

#3 comment

oh I guess I already answered this one with my first section. The reason why I am comparing the planet killer to vorlon ships is because they have the same general build (special Equip., turns, arcs, attributes) and thus are far more accurate then comparing them to other races ships to think up a larger Vorlon ship.

According to this new method, the health is reasonable for a 5 point ancient but I still think it is underpowered in the weapons.

oh I forgot, 20 AD of QD/pr/beam on average will do 80 damage base and then all the crits. Ancients are between 200-300 damage (lordship has AA) Even if your crits do an extra 60- 80 damage, they will not die.

I think I'm done now, obviously I have a bias in this situation but I think my points are logical.