In ship design, where are the life support and grav plates accounted for?

[Sageryne]

Hi all,

I am working on a detachable ship designs. I want the detachable part to be as simple as possible (basically a big box without drives or its own power), but I also want it to have life support and gravity. My thought was to power those things from the mothership. However, in looking at the High Guard rules, there is no tonnage for live support or grave plates, so I assume in is lumped in with something else. The only thing that makes sense to me is for it to be incorporated into the tonnage of the power plant.

Any other suggestions or explanations?

Thanks

 

[Vormaerin]

Most components are larger than they actually are to account for stuff that they don't feel like statting out. The classic example being how staterooms take up 3 dtons according to deckplans, but are 4 dtons to install. This is because passageways and common areas are expected to come out of the stateroom tonnage.

The computer doesn't have space of its own, because it is part of the bridge and other components' tonnage.

Grav plates are part of the hull. Life Support is part of every component, essentially. Air purification units in the staterooms, bridge, etc. Lights. Temperature control. All these things are distributed throughout the ship and are part of basically everything you buy.

But they don't function without power. So you cound imagine it as part of the engine space, because if you don't have power to your detached hull, it doesn't have life support or grav plates that work. Of course, that power could be batteries, solar hull coating, etc. Doesn't need to be a power plant.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

However, in looking at the High Guard rules, there is no tonnage for live support or grave plates, so I assume in is lumped in with something else.

Most systems are distributed into several subsystems in different locations.

I would assume life support is a subsystem of accommodations, e.g. "staterooms", as that determines how many people the ship can support long term.
Life support systems are powered by the Basic Ship Systems, based on hull volume.
Grav plates for artificial gravity is an optional part of the Hull, see Non-gravity Hull.
Grav plates for G compensation is a part of the M-drive, see HOW MANOEUVRE DRIVES WORK.

 

[Sageryne]

Hi all,

Thank you for your comments.

Let me layout what I am planning to do, to better explain my problem.

I want to do a cargo box, 2000 dTons, with full life support and gravity (so the shipping containers inside that box don't have to be vacuum rated). The cargo box has no staterooms, passageways, common areas, or bridge (so, nowhere that the life support or gravity is included in the examples stated above). The hull costs money, but doesn't consume any volume. The box I am planning is 100%, 2000 dTons, cargo hold. In High Guard, cargo holds are available volume with no cost.

My original plan was to have it powered externally from the mothership it is attached to.

Thanks

 

[Condottiere]

So, presumably, when you order a non gravitated hull, you get back that extra volume that gravitational plating would take up?

Making the ship's computer virtual is a piece of handwavium to remove the need to recalculate volume for each factor at each technological level.

 

[Takei]

I'd just use the Modular Hull rules from High Guard Update 2022 (p.44). Hull modules cost Cr25000 per ton and the description of modules says they can be used for anything from missile bays to laboratories (which seems to suggest life support, including gravity).

 

[Sageryne]

I'd just use the Modular Hull rules from High Guard Update 2022 (p.44). Hull modules cost Cr25000 per ton and the description of modules says they can be used for anything from missile bays to laboratories (which seems to suggest life support, including gravity).

That seems like the most reasonable solution.

Thanks

 

[Arkathan]

So, presumably, when you order a non gravitated hull, you get back that extra volume that gravitational plating would take up?

No. The hull just costs less.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I want to do a cargo box, 2000 dTons, with full life support and gravity (so the shipping containers inside that box don't have to be vacuum rated). The cargo box has no staterooms, passageways, common areas, or bridge (so, nowhere that the life support or gravity is included in the examples stated above). The hull costs money, but doesn't consume any volume. The box I am planning is 100%, 2000 dTons, cargo hold. In High Guard, cargo holds are available volume with no cost.

I don't think that is a problem, except G compensation.

If the mothership has a crew of say 20, it can refresh air and water for 20 people, so leach off that when the cargo box is visited.

Lights etc. are too cheap too worry about.

Artificial gravity comes with a basic hull, but G compensation would require an M-drive.

My original plan was to have it powered externally from the mothership it is attached to.

No problem. But as soon as you disconnect it lights and gravity goes.

 

[Annatar Giftbringer]

Unless you add a battery with enough power for basic needs over how many hours you deem necessary until pickup?

 

[Condottiere]

We don't know what the costs and volume for life support would be, because it isn't specified, though having operated nuclear powered submarines for half a century, plus the occasional space hop, should give us a clue

In theory, gravitational plating should take up actual volume, unless it's a field effect emanating from a more substantial piece of kit, if so, has never been identified.

Like inertial compensation.

 

[Alqualonde]

In Mongoose Traveller, like in Classical traveller, life support is abstracted. It comes with deck plating and is included in the hull cost.
The only Traveller books where I've seen specific entries for life support & G-compensation were the Fire, Fusion & Steel books for TNE & T4 and in T5.
I have played TNE a long time ago, this level of detail adds a lot of 'realism' (turning a space opera game to a hard science game) but a lot more bookkeeping... "Sorry Bob, the laser beam did destroy your room, you lost your pet cat and your wardrobe."
Too much details can make it daunting for new players. We might loose them to other games like Starfinder.

In the case of space rated containers, if they are to be manipulated in space, the work pod need some spare energy for the containers (1EP per 5dT).
The pod connect to the container, plug to the energy outlet then unplug the ship/base outlet. You can then move the container to another place/ship/subcraft, plug it back to an energy source (which can be a container shaped powerplant, a big solar array, etc.).

There is already refrigerated container in our world. Most have to be plugged to an external energy source (no internal energy production) and can stay out of juice for at least a few minutes, others are filled with dry ice and can stay cool for days (less than 30). I guess that 3000 years the future, intertial compensation & grav plating will be a trivial issue like star travel is.

 

[Condottiere]

That depends very much as to how information is presented to the readers, in a user friendly manner.

Not that easy, as some publishers should have found out by now.

 

[Sigtrygg]

In CT there was wiggle room.
Life support machinery could be part of the bridge and each stateroom.
In MT the bridge disappeared, life support and gravitics becomes individually accounted for systems

 

[Condottiere]

You also had a twenty tonne bridge, which could subsume a lot of kit that took up space, like the ship's locker.

Two percent hull volume also helps.

 

[Alqualonde]

In CT there was wiggle room.
Life support machinery could be part of the bridge and each stateroom.
In MT the bridge disappeared, life support and gravitics becomes individually accounted for systems

View attachment 1873

I really need to read the MT books again. I didn't remember this part.
So if i'm not mistaken,for MT basic life support + artificial grav + inertial compensators takes 7% of the internal volume. Not insignificant but still below the +/- 10% leeway.
Beside 1dT is two 1.5x1.5x3m squares on the maps. I doubt the ceiling are 3m high in most ships. You'll have space between decks for all the wiring & plumbing. That might easily include the grav plates & life support.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I really need to read the MT books again. I didn't remember this part.
So if i'm not mistaken,for MT basic life support + artificial grav + inertial compensators takes 7% of the internal volume. Not insignificant but still below the +/- 10% leeway.

With errata Basic Lifesupport is 0.5%, not 5%.

Total Life Support and agrav is 3.3%, but full life support need not be applied to the full hull, e.g. not fuel tanks, so normally more like 3%.

Not enough to worry about in MgT...

Beside 1dT is two 1.5x1.5x3m squares on the maps. I doubt the ceiling are 3m high in most ships. You'll have space between decks for all the wiring & plumbing. That might easily include the grav plates & life support.

Agreed.

 

[Ol'Weedy]

Hi all,

I am working on a detachable ship designs. I want the detachable part to be as simple as possible (basically a big box without drives or its own power), but I also want it to have life support and gravity. My thought was to power those things from the mothership. However, in looking at the High Guard rules, there is no tonnage for live support or grave plates, so I assume in is lumped in with something else. The only thing that makes sense to me is for it to be incorporated into the tonnage of the power plant.

Any other suggestions or explanations?

Thanks

Life support (the non-consumable parts), and grav plates are baked into the hull. As others have stated though, you need power. You can actually halve the power requirements AND hull cost by choosing not to install the grav plates, and go the floaty/spinny route. Since that accounts for 50% of power requirements, I'd assume the other 50% to be lights and life support.
(All this assuming HG2022)

 

[Alqualonde]

Life support (the non-consumable parts), and grav plates are baked into the hull. As others have stated though, you need power. You can actually halve the power requirements AND hull cost by choosing not to install the grav plates, and go the floaty/spinny route. Since that accounts for 50% of power requirements, I'd assume the other 50% to be lights and life support.
(All this assuming HG2022)

I assume the same. Especially with the Vilani tradition of 'dimming the lights' before engaging jump drive, that appears to be logical.
A torus space station (like the one seen at the beginning of the 2001: Space Odyssey movie. [Insert Blue Danube tune] ) would only need this amount of energy. The central spoke would be in 0G and the torus at whatever can be done depending on diameter, rpm and inhabitant needs.

 

[NOLATrav]

In CT there was wiggle room.
Life support machinery could be part of the bridge and each stateroom.
In MT the bridge disappeared, life support and gravitics becomes individually accounted for systems

View attachment 1873

Yeah super-cool but it was all broken. Numbers never worked without going back and redoing it all three times. Even trying to fudge the entries on the tables didn't work. Not worthy of a canon mention IMO.