Improved Two Weapon Combat or The True Hackmaster!

[rook111]

Is it just me or does the Conan version of the Improved Two Weapon Combat feat fall into the "every character must have this feat" catagory.

While every other d20 game allows this feat to give a second extra attack with the offhand weapon it seems that in Hyboria they really know how to do it right, giving an extra attack for each normal attack allowed at NO penalty.

Is this a mistake? Am I reading something wrong? Am I just crazy?

By Crom, 8 attacks at no Penalty at 20th Level, sign me up!!!

 

[Mayhem]

Yes, it is easier to use TWF in Conan than in D&D.

But I don't think this is unbalancing, due to two simple factor:

1) Damage Reduction. The Armour penetration of all the weapons you can weild in your off hand without causing a penalty is very poor. Most won't penetrate even a leather jerkin unless the weilder is exceptionally strong.

Fundamentally, if you choose to make two lesser attacks instead of one stronger one, your opponent gets twice as much effect out of his armour.

2) Sheer Damage

Two-handed weapons in Conan are a lot more damaging than their D&D counterparts. 1 attack with a greatsword gives you a roll of 2D10, which is hard to beat with any pair of lighter weapons that wouldn't give you a penalty. And its Armour Penetration is significantly higher, too.


**********

Compare: Vs a Leather Jerkin, Strength 14. We could use a higher strength, but we could equally use better armour, so I thinks its a fair comparison. 1 Greatsword, or a War-sword and a Shortsword.

1 Attack with Greastword: Damage 2D10 +3 (strength) -2 (armour, penetrated)

Net Result: 2D10 +1

1 Attack with War Sword: Damage D12 +2 (Strength) -2 (armour, penetrated)
+ 1 Attack with Shortsword: Damage D8 +1 (Strength) -4 (Armour, unpenetrated)

Net result: D12+D8-3

***********

That ignores a lot of factors - critical hits, the minimum damage one hit can do, etc etc. But I think it is a fair comparison. After all, it also ignore the fact that once you have gone beyond one natural attack, you need to spend a feat on your fighting style that you could have spent on (eg) weapon specialisation.

If you include those factors, two weapon fighting probably has the edge if you are up against unarmoured, or lightly armoured opponents. Which is probably why Borderers favour it, since they spend most of their time battling scantily-clad savages.

But against anybody with any decent amount of armour, two-handed weapons almost certainly have the edge.

 

[Garet]

If i'm reading it right this is only if its a light weapon. if its not light then you still have a -4 for one handed weapons, no penalty for light weapons. the description for improved 2 wpn fighting is using a light wpn a poniard. Decided to look this up as peeps in our game will be wanting to use this. any other thoughts?

 

[Mayhem]

Indeed, if both of your weapons are "full size" one handed weapons, you will suffer a -4 to both weapons even if you have the Two Weapon Fighting feat.

 

[rook111]

Yes, it is easier to use TWF in Conan than in D&D.

But I don't think this is unbalancing, due to two simple factor:

1) Damage Reduction. The Armour penetration of all the weapons you can weild in your off hand without causing a penalty is very poor. Most won't penetrate even a leather jerkin unless the weilder is exceptionally strong.

Fundamentally, if you choose to make two lesser attacks instead of one stronger one, your opponent gets twice as much effect out of his armour.

First of all I didn't say it was unbalanceing after all this is Conan. But as I think about it, it is unbalanced with any other D20 Product that I have seen (not including modern era settings).

In your argument about Damage Reduction you seem to be forgetting Finnesse. All light weapons are Finnessable and thus have the potential to ignore DR, many one handed weapons can be used with Finesse as well. Thats, at level twenty, eight chances to hit and possible ignore DR where as your greatsword only gets four chances to hit and suffers from DR each time. If I'm using an Arming Sword and a Short Sword I'm doing the exact same damage as the Greatsword. Maybe not better but at least equal.

Anyway, What I was actually trying to draw attention to was that, In Conan, you can get up to 8 unmodified Attacks in a round as opposed to the maximum of 6 attacks with at best a -2 modifier to all attacks made that round in any other D20/OGl game that I have seem.

8. Attacks. A round.
If it wasn't so cool, it would be obscene.

 

[Mayhem]

In your argument about Damage Reduction you seem to be forgetting Finnesse. All light weapons are Finnessable and thus have the potential to ignore DR, many one handed weapons can be used with Finesse as well. .

I'm not ignoring Finesse at all. In order to use it, after all, you need to beat the opponents DV by quite a significant amount, which won't be easy, and if you don't do that, chances are your weapon won't penetrate armour at all (since you won't be adding any STR mod). It probably balances out.

And which "one handed" weapons (as opposed to light) can be weilded with Finesse? Only the arming sword, which has a paltry 2AP, which means that any finesse attack made with this that don't beat your opponents DV by their DR will *always* suffer full damage reduction.

("One" doesn't equal "Many" last time I checked)

I suppose then, it is fair to add

"If you so outclass your opponents DV that you can hit him even with a substantial negative modifer" to the circumstances in which two weapons will be potentially as good as a single one.

 

[Ian Sturrock]

"If you so outclass your opponents DV that you can hit him even with a substantial negative modifer" to the circumstances in which two weapons will be potentially as good as a single one.

Yeah, my original Designer's Notes mentioned something about this. The idea was to make all combinations of weapon-and-shield, two weapons, and 2-handed weapons viable at one time or another. Shields are very handy for low level combat types for the extra defence; hence, in the books they tend to only be seen wielded by ordinary mercenaries and soldiers. Your typical mid-level Conan adventurer will get good use out of two weapons a lot of the time, just as Conan does in so many of the stories (usually, but not always, a broadsword and dirk). Two weapons are great if you're facing large numbers of relatively low-level unarmoured opponents. Two-handed weapons are most useful on the battlefield, going up against fully armoured knights. For general purposes, a character might be better off with two weapons, or might be better with a two-hander, depending on game stats and other things.

 

[rook111]

And which "one handed" weapons (as opposed to light) can be weilded with Finesse? Only the arming sword, which has a paltry 2AP, which means that any finesse attack made with this that don't beat your opponents DV by their DR will *always* suffer full damage reduction.

("One" doesn't equal "Many" last time I checked)

I suppose then, it is fair to add

"If you so outclass your opponents DV that you can hit him even with a substantial negative modifer" to the circumstances in which two weapons will be potentially as good as a single one.

Sorry about the many I was seeing squiglies where there weren't any on closer examination (I need beeter glasses).

As for the other I have never disputed the fact that the two-handed weapons are far more damageing, but that doesn't remove the fact that 8 attacks a round with no penalties is a hell of a lot of attacks per round with NO Penalties. And to Ignore Dr with a Finesse shot the most I will ever have to roll is 12 better than what ever DV I'm facing and in most casses only about half of that. by the time a character gets those 8 attacks a round he will probably be able to do that on most attack that he makes. :wink:

 

[Mayhem]

Hence my "outclassing opponents" provisio...

Of course, if you outclass your opponents so much that even a -12 modifier to hit is negligable, then I hate to think what damage you could have been doing if you had spent your feat on "power attack" instead of improved TWF...

 

[rook111]

I give Up :roll: