Imperial Regional Cultures and Books Detailing Them: Continuation Thread

[MasterGwydion]

I agree 100%. The need to remove all mystery and unknown from a setting is a mistake in my opinion. And no, a GM does not need to know 100% of everything in a setting in order to run a great game either.

I don't run adventures. I run sandbox campaigns. Generally, my players pick a Subsector or (more rarely) a Sector and stay within those bounds. The less detail that exists about what is in those areas, the more I have to do in order to create a seamless campaign world for My players. Having more details provides more opportunities for things that are happening around the periphery of the players' attention. It allows Me to use ideas that some wonderful writers have included in the setting, that wouldn't have occurred to Me otherwise. My favorite place to run games in in the Trojan Reach exactly because there is so much written about that sector and its surroundings, and it is outside of the 3I.

I can run a mystery game in a city that all of My players live in and can google every detail possible about the city. No fictional setting will or can ever have that kind of detail, but a well-run campaign can still be very interesting and still have tons of surprises.

Edit: As an example. If I need a specific set of circumstances for an idea for a story? I grab the books and see where that story could best fit. The more detail I have, the easier it is to find a place that it fits. After that, I make up whatever additional levels of detail are needed for the story.

 

[-Daniel-]

I don't run adventures. I run sandbox campaigns. Generally, my players pick a Subsector or (more rarely) a Sector and stay within those bounds. The less detail that exists about what is in those areas, the more I have to do in order to create a seamless campaign world for My players. Having more details provides more opportunities for things that are happening around the periphery of the players' attention. It allows Me to use ideas that some wonderful writers have included in the setting, that wouldn't have occurred to Me otherwise. My favorite place to run games in in the Trojan Reach exactly because there is so much written about that sector and its surroundings, and it is outside of the 3I.

I can run a mystery game in a city that all of My players live in and can google every detail possible about the city. No fictional setting will or can ever have that kind of detail, but a well-run campaign can still be very interesting and still have tons of surprises.

Edit: As an example. If I need a specific set of circumstances for an idea for a story? I grab the books and see where that story could best fit. The more detail I have, the easier it is to find a place that it fits. After that, I make up whatever additional levels of detail are needed for the story.

I suspect you misunderstood what I wrote. I said a GM does not need to know 100% of everything in a setting in order to run a great game either. Not that they can't or must not. So even in your edit example, you share that you can run a good game once you know some of the specifics.

To bring it back to the original point, GMs, a lot of them, were and could run great Traveller games without knowing 100% of everything about the Ancients for example. The quality of the game is not limited to knowing 100% of everything. I believe even you run a wonderful game when you start to add in the details from your own imagination.

 

[Vormaerin]

If its published, its common knowledge. Maybe some particular group of players doesn't read it, but overall it no longer a secret or a possibility, it is a stone cold fact.

 

[-Daniel-]

If its published, its common knowledge. Maybe some particular group of players doesn't read it, but overall it no longer a secret or a possibility, it is a stone cold fact.

I am going to withdraw from this thread now. Clearly, I have failed to articulate my thought. The answer to 100% of the mysteries in a setting did not need to be published. It was OK to have a mystery or two in the setting.

 

[Vormaerin]

I was agreeing with you? My point was that mysteries that have published answers aren't mysteries. They are facts. Mysteries are things the GM adds to their game.

 

[Sigtrygg]

That is very sad, and it bodes very ill for new and old players alike.

Don't get me wrong, things have got a lot better, Trouble is early and even some current MgT shows that the authors either didn't know the canon, were ignoring canon in favour of their own head canon, or are ret-conning under orders so to speak - the inner circle says this is how it is now.

 

[Sigtrygg]

If its published, its common knowledge. Maybe some particular group of players doesn't read it, but overall it no longer a secret or a possibility, it is a stone cold fact.

What , you mean that there are some people who don't know (do not read any further if you don't already know)
the Deepnight Entity is a great Old One type primordial threat imprisoned by black holes? Or that contrary to CT canon most of Grandfather's children and grandchildern survived the Ancient War, and that after solving Grandfather's latest problem the players become uplifted superhumans...

 

[Sigtrygg]

I am going to withdraw from this thread now. Clearly, I have failed to articulate my thought. The answer to 100% of the mysteries in a setting did not need to be published. It was OK to have a mystery or two in the setting.

It gives the referee more freedom to adapt the setting to their own group too.

 

[MasterGwydion]

It gives the referee more freedom to adapt the setting to their own group too.

Having more information does not take away that freedom, because none of Us actually play in the OTU. It is impossible. Every Referee is playing in their Traveller Universe. Every NPC they write up. Every local watering hole that they create. Every ship they design. All of this is what makes it their TU and not the OTU. The very minute you introduce the PCs, you are no longer in the OTU.

Point being, having more detail written in the setting only is limiting for people who like going to the grocery store and only having one type of item available. Having more available doesn't take away your freedom to eat how you want.

 

[Sigtrygg]

If all the setting secrets are out in the open then there is nothing to stop the players exploiting their metagame knowledge. And if those setting secrets are in a book then they will have access to them.

"Ok you are leaving Regina, where are you jumping to?"

"We set course for Fulacin, we are going to find the Octogon society building and then loot the Ancient base underneath it."

Ok, then what.

Then we are off to Rhylanor to activate the secret Ancient device that will stop the Empress Wave.

Next on the list is a long trip to Capital to assassinate Dulinor and stop the Rebellion.

We'll go and buy some of those fantastic personal energy shields on the way and stock up on ion rifles while we are there.

 

[MasterGwydion]

If all the setting secrets are out in the open then there is nothing to stop the players exploiting their metagame knowledge. And if those setting secrets are in a book then they will have access to them.

"Ok you are leaving Regina, where are you jumping to?"

"We set course for Fulacin, we are going to find the Octogon society building and then loot the Ancient base underneath it."

Ok, then what.

Then we are off to Rhylanor to activate the secret Ancient device that will stop the Empress Wave.

Next on the list is a long trip to Capital to assassinate Dulinor and stop the Rebellion.

We'll go and buy some of those fantastic personal energy shields on the way and stock up on ion rifles while we are there.

So, your argument is that your players are cheaters or do not have the maturity to separate in-game knowledge from out-of-game knowledge. You know what that is called by the people I have gamed with over the decades? Cheating. It is called cheating. If I have a player that wants to be involved with all of that stuff, I will give the published info a read through and write a story arc that has the possibility of the players getting what they want. I played in a similar game of Rifts decades ago. The players knew all of the secrets and with those secrets came up with a plan to play an Anti-Coalition campaign. The DM knew what We wanted and so wrote a story where We could do that. It all started with collaboration between the players and the DM for character histories, contacts, figuring out where different bits of the information that Our characters need can be found at, etc. Out-of-game, We collectively figured out how to accomplish Our out-of-game goals and the worked with the DM to make it happen as well as suggesting obstacles that would make sense for the DM to put in the PCs way for them to overcome.

Everyone at the table knew everything. We all owned every Rifts book ever published (at the time anyhow). That campaign ran for several years of playing once a week for about 6 hours a session. It is still one of the most fun games that I have ever played in, and it was only possible because everyone knew everything.

So, in conclusion, if done your way, My favorite campaign for which I was a player, could never have happened. To Me that is sad.

 

[actionman]

So the answer to your question is... there's no answers.

And Mongoose needs to address this, which is the point of this thread. IMO Mongoose needs to make a self-contained rpg that a new player can pick up and play without running into undefined major topics and inconsistencies and without having to read the Traveller wiki about 5 other editions. They need to set down in stone / Mongoose canon what is true and what is not in the Mongoose Traveller setting, and it has to be logical and consistent, so a group of players who don't know each other can sit down at a table together and have a common frame of reference without having to read a page or several of GM setting notes about how his TU is different than the published setting. IMO these setting notes are 1) a homebake setting because the GM feels like it, or 2) addressing undefined, inconsistent, or nonsensical problems with the published products, or 3) both. Other games don't do this to the great degree that Traveller does. No one sits down to play DnD and gets told he needs to read the Forgotten Realms boxed set from 2nd Edition to understand the context of a 5th Edition DnD game. No one gets told well in an article in Dragon Magazine from 1983 there's a particular spell and that's canon. People run homebake worlds in DnD, but playing in a published setting as is far more common and doesn't have these issues. People ask, is it homebake, and frequently decline to play in such settings because they're frequently a pain. In Traveller it's almost expected.

Mongoose is at the helm of Traveller now, and only they can address these issues. They need to nail down a setting that supersedes everything that went before, so when people play Mongoose Traveller, the game will be according to Mongoose canon. If a GM wants to run his particular TU that's great, but when people want to play a game that's set in the OTU, they can rely on published canon to be complete, consistent, and sensible. They need to do us the courtesy of making a setting in which we don't have to constantly head canon things to cover over shortcomings or things that don't make sense.

 

[Sigtrygg]

So, your argument is that your players are cheaters or do not have the maturity to separate in-game knowledge from out-of-game knowledge. You know what that is called by the people I have gamed with over the decades? Cheating.

They are not cheating, they are reading the literature that is available to them and then using it to their character's advantage. it's nothing to do with childish labels of cheater and immature. You can't unsee that which you have seen - said someone famous probably.

It is called cheating.

How is it cheating to read the same books as you? if they buy them thy have every right to read them.

If I have a player that wants to be involved with all of that stuff, I will give the published info a read through and write a story arc that has the possibility of the players getting what they want. I played in a similar game of Rifts decades ago. The players knew all of the secrets and with those secrets came up with a plan to play an Anti-Coalition campaign. The DM knew what We wanted and so wrote a story where We could do that. It all started with collaboration between the players and the DM for character histories, contacts, figuring out where different bits of the information that Our characters need can be found at, etc. Out-of-game, We collectively figured out how to accomplish Our out-of-game goals and the worked with the DM to make it happen as well as suggesting obstacles that would make sense for the DM to put in the PCs way for them to overcome.

Everyone at the table knew everything. We all owned every Rifts book ever published (at the time anyhow).

You have my condolences.

That campaign ran for several years of playing once a week for about 6 hours a session. It is still one of the most fun games that I have ever played in, and it was only possible because everyone knew everything.

But you just said at the start that we are cheating by doing that...

So, in conclusion, if done your way, My favorite campaign for which I was a player, could never have happened. To Me that is sad.

And if done your way I would find the Traveller Third Imperium setting not worth gaming in. Oh, wait a moment...

The FFW is going to be sorted out by the supercharacters that get to the end of the Ancients trilogy is it not? Ancients trilogy start date 1105, the supercharacters should be ready to wave their magic wands and end the FFW by 1110 surely? Those same supercharacters can go and catch up with the DNR and take out the entity. Or at least make the trip to the Magellanic cloud to rescue the ship and survivors.

The best news that came out of the MgT FFW announcement was that the ending of this war will be in the hands of the referee.

But then what?

How do Mongoose move the setting forward without having the one true resolution to the FFW informing the next set of events?

Will each era become its own alternative history?

 

[Condottiere]

I'm pretty sure that every starport is going to have a MacDonald and a Starbuck franchise in each.

Probably several Starbucks.

 

[MasterGwydion]

They are not cheating, they are reading the literature that is available to them and then using it to their character's advantage. it's nothing to do with childish labels of cheater and immature. You can't unsee that which you have seen - said someone famous probably.

How is it cheating to read the same books as you? if they buy them thy have every right to read them.

Apparently, you do not understand the difference between player knowledge and character knowledge. Perhaps that is because it requires maturity to separate the two.

You have my condolences.

But you just said at the start that we are cheating by doing that...

Not what I said at all. See the above about player knowledge and character knowledge.

And if done your way I would find the Traveller Third Imperium setting not worth gaming in. Oh, wait a moment...

Then go build your own world and let Us enjoy the OTU setting and its stories.

The FFW is going to be sorted out by the supercharacters that get to the end of the Ancients trilogy is it not? Ancients trilogy start date 1105, the supercharacters should be ready to wave their magic wands and end the FFW by 1110 surely? Those same supercharacters can go and catch up with the DNR and take out the entity. Or at least make the trip to the Magellanic cloud to rescue the ship and survivors.

I don't run the Ancients adventures. The Ancients are still doing what they are doing. It is happening "behind the scenes". So, My players never become superheroes, unless you mean like Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne. Customize a set of Battle Dress and call it done.

The best news that came out of the MgT FFW announcement was that the ending of this war will be in the hands of the referee.

But then what?

How do Mongoose move the setting forward without having the one true resolution to the FFW informing the next set of events?

Will each era become its own alternative history?

You say the best news is that there is no setting. All of these questions lead to answers where it is better to define things. If you don't define things, then you have no setting at all.

 

[actionman]

The best news that came out of the MgT FFW announcement was that the ending of this war will be in the hands of the referee.

But then what?

How do Mongoose move the setting forward without having the one true resolution to the FFW informing the next set of events?

Will each era become its own alternative history?

Thanks for addressing this. Asking questions like this is very, very important.

IMO there needs to be an OTU resolution of the war, and not a milquetoast everything stays the same type of ending either. Then GM's can edit their TU's from there.

It would be great to have some kind of game in which the players take the role of naval commanders and fight out the FFW and then go back to their usual sessions in the changed setting that they have made.

 

[Sigtrygg]

And Mongoose needs to address this, which is the point of this thread. IMO Mongoose needs to make a self-contained rpg that a new player can pick up and play without running into undefined major topics and inconsistencies and without having to read the Traveller wiki about 5 other editions.

The problem is one of our own making. Traveller was originally a game to make up your owns sci fi stories in a universe you make up, based on the few tropes that were in the rules and guided by the sci fi books and magazines (to which we should now add all the other media) that sparked your imagination.

Then the fanbase demanded adventures, which required a setting, which was called the Imperium, and became the Third Imperium.

Traveller is not The Third Imperium role playing game - sadly it is now what most perceive it to be.

They need to set down in stone / Mongoose canon what is true and what is not in the Mongoose Traveller setting, and it has to be logical and consistent, so a group of players who don't know each other can sit down at a table together and have a common frame of reference without having to read a page or several of GM setting notes about how his TU is different than the published setting.

I would agree, but there is a lot about the Third Imperium setting that I can do better, and thus will explain the differences to my players and then we will get on with it.

IMO these setting notes are 1) a homebake setting because the GM feels like it,

Trveller was intended to be a homebrew setting, and not every detail of the Third Imperium is something every referee likes.

or 2) addressing undefined, inconsistent, or nonsensical problems with the published products,

there are plenty of those

or 3) both. Other games don't do this to the great degree that Traveller does. No one sits down to play DnD and gets told he needs to read the Forgotten Realms boxed set from 2nd Edition to understand the context of a 5th Edition DnD game. No one gets told well in an article in Dragon Magazine from 1983 there's a particular spell and that's canon. People run homebake worlds in DnD, but playing in a published setting as is far more common and doesn't have these issues. People ask, is it homebake, and frequently decline to play in such settings because they're frequently a pain. In Traveller it's almost expected.

You must move in different media to me but I have seen D&D setting flame wars that make Traveller discussions look like a cozy pick-nick fire.
In my experience most D&D groups I have DMed for or played in use bespoke setting or just nod towards hawk the Slayer and get on with it.

I do accept that it is a peculiarity of Traveller that so many discussion boards end up with people talking about playing with Traveller rather than playing Traveller.

Mongoose is at the helm of Traveller now, and only they can address these issues. They need to nail down a setting that supersedes everything that went before, so when people play Mongoose Traveller, the game will be according to Mongoose canon.

I agree, their's is the final word. The problem is their authors make stuff up that isn't consistent with their own rules and setting details,

If a GM wants to run his particular TU that's great, but when people want to play a game that's set in the OTU, they can rely on published canon to be complete, consistent, and sensible. They need to do us the courtesy of making a setting in which we don't have to constantly head canon things to cover over shortcomings or things that don't make sense.

That is a worthy goal.

 

[actionman]

@MasterGwydion @Terry Mixon ,

It's not just about me, I can head canon like mad. What really concerns me is that issues like this make Traveller, the best scifi ttrpg of all time, pretty hard to get into for new players. Consider Fading Suns, for example. In that setting, the different factions and races have distinct characterizations, issues, and conflicts that lend themselves to giving the players a strong sense of "this is who my character is, this is what his motivations are, these are the issues that are acting on him, and this is what he's doing". And everybody knows what the setting is.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Apparently, you do not understand the difference between player knowledge and character knowledge. Perhaps that is because it requires maturity to separate the two.

Apparently you haven't a clue about my level of education, intelligence or maturity and are willing to engage in snark and personal attacks - fair enough, the gloves are off

Not what I said at all. See the above about player knowledge and character knowledge.

You played Rifts lol lol lol - how's that for mature?

Ok more seriously, the two can not be separated in my experience, knowledge is knowledge. Even if I think I am playing in character I still know the metagame stuff, pretending not to know "in character" does not stop it informing character actions.

Then go build your own world and let Us enjoy the OTU setting and its stories.

I have, many times. Many, many times. I have also run adventures set in whatever the OTU was at the time, CT every adventure, double adventure and boxed adventure, MT Knightfall and Flaming Eye, TNE every adventure, T4 every adventure. I used other rule systems to run some of those adventures, I ran bespoke setting galore.

I have tried to run T5, I have run MgT1e and 2e games, but I always go back to my homebrew CT mish mash of rules and my Long Night or Culture settings.

Which OTU do you mean? The Third Imperium? The Rebellion era? TNE, T4 and the early years of the Third Imperium? And which version the the Third Imperium? The MgT version, the earlt GDW version, the later GDW version that saw the nature of the Imperium change...

I don't run the Ancients adventures. The Ancients are still doing what they are doing. It is happening "behind the scenes". So, My players never become superheroes, unless you mean like Tony Stark or Bruce Wayne. Customize a set of Battle Dress and call it done.

And yet it happens, the setting says so. So somehwhere out there in the MgT OTU there a super powered characters...

You say the best news is that there is no setting. All of these questions lead to answers where it is better to define things. If you don't define things, then you have no setting at all.

I said I like that the referee will get to decide the outcome, not that there is no setting. How do you have a FFW with no setting?

 

[Sigtrygg]

@MasterGwydion @Terry Mixon ,

It's not just about me, I can head canon like mad. What really concerns me is that issues like this make Traveller, the best scifi ttrpg of all time, pretty hard to get into for new players. Consider Fading Suns, for example. In that setting, the different factions and races have distinct characterizations, issues, and conflicts that lend themselves to giving the players a strong sense of "this is who my character is, this is what his motivations are, these are the issues that are acting on him, and this is what he's doing". And everybody knows what the setting is.

I am not trying to be snarky with this post but I can't tell how much history you have with the Traveller game.

Have you taken a look at the original version?

free pdf is here

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

Mongoose have done a really good job with their core rules. They have some superb campaigns, adventures and supplements.

If I had been them I would never have tried to go into the detail they have without first stating that all previous work is hereby consigned to the dustbin, this is how it is. And make their authors use the rule books and systems as written.