I'm done for now. Call me if 3rd edition fixes things.

[Chernobyl]

This

I don't really like the idea of a 'bore sight' special action. It gives a massive advantage to bore sight heavy fleets that would just flip flop the argument. If all your ships had bore sight weapons, and the bore sight firing special action allowed them to move last, you could just declare it for all your ships and then they are all going to move last. It actually makes the problem worse.

is not what he said here

A special action for lining a boresight up on a target that's yet to move would get around this. It signals your intention to your opponent early in your movement phase. Something like: letting the boresight ship make its (final) turn at the end of the movement phase (but only to align a boresight on the declared target) after all other ships have moved (the opponent may still be able to manoeuvre the target so that it could still be out of arc).

The boresight ship would not be moving last in this concept, it would be turning/pivoting to line up on a target. This is a reiteration of a special action suggestion I posted a while ago, suggesting a special action that allowed a boresight equipped ship to hold one of its allowed turns until after all ships have moved, for the purpose of lining up on a target. It doesn't change its position on the field, just its heading. You're reading something into the suggestion its not.

 

[sidewinder]

How about if you let ships fire when they move? For example, I aim my omega at a ship and fire it at the same time. Then it wont matter if the target has even moved or not. Winning inititive will mean you'll actually want to move a ship first rather then make your opponent move first. Fighters will just move before ships rather then after and still shoot first.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Ah... I got confused, it happens... I slept like crap and am exhausted (and bored out of my mind) at work

 

[Da Boss]

How about if you let ships fire when they move? For example, I aim my omega at a ship and fire it at the same time. Then it wont matter if the target has even moved or not. Winning inititive will mean you'll actually want to move a ship first rather then make your opponent move first. Fighters will just move before ships rather then after and still shoot first.

Hmm that switches it too much the other way - fast agile ships can't get out of arcs unless they win iniaitive.

I would be happy to see one of the suggstions for the boresight special order to be implemented........

ie the half AD for F arc, or the ability to save a turn one.

note I don't use Boresight ships usually as I play Centauri and Shadows in the main...........and we don't do primative tech like that :wink: much more a Narn thing.

 

[l33tpenguin]

I'm still in favor of a 15 degree bore sight arc. 15 degrees isn't HUGE, its small enough that you can plan ahead to get your ships out of the way, but wide enough that it gives the leway to line up shots

 

[lastbesthope]

And different enough to be difficult to eyeball without a template of some sort.

 

[Triggy]

And different enough to be difficult to eyeball without a template of some sort.

And this is the precise reason that we don't have 15 degree arcs.

 

[katadder]

How about if you let ships fire when they move? For example, I aim my omega at a ship and fire it at the same time. Then it wont matter if the target has even moved or not. Winning inititive will mean you'll actually want to move a ship first rather then make your opponent move first. Fighters will just move before ships rather then after and still shoot first.

Hmm that switches it too much the other way - fast agile ships can't get out of arcs unless they win iniaitive.

I would be happy to see one of the suggstions for the boresight special order to be implemented........

ie the half AD for F arc, or the ability to save a turn one.

note I don't use Boresight ships usually as I play Centauri and Shadows in the main...........and we don't do primative tech like that :wink: much more a Narn thing.

boresight ships as a general rule get more AD than foreward arc ships (there are exceptions) so if your hyperion gets a 2AD foreward arc if cant get boresight then my Teshlan wants 4AD if does get boresight so option 1 doesnt work so well.

option 2, the special action - would maybe work if you had to declare your target when you move the ship (as suggested in this thread) and then the turn has to be towards said target but still gives too much flexibility as you get to see which way the target goes.
eg. you trying to line up an omega on a whitestar:

Current rules: cant do it this turn as you lost init so have a decision to make on which way you are going to turn or if you are going to.

Suggested rules: turn at the end of all movement, this allows you to see which way the ship has gone so can turn accordingly, which may not get you onto boresight but will certainly help in the fact you know which way to go.

option 2 actually gives too much tactical flexibility on movement as you can see where the opponents have gone before making any of your turns.

 

[Ripple]

the reserving a turn has been suggested many times, and in all reasonable cases the turn has been forced to bring bore sight to bear on the target selected during normal movement.

It is actually very restrictive for the bore sighted ship, as it lets the enemy ship, if say a whitestar, determine where the omega will be facing. Having a lumbering ship go off the wrong way can be devastating. Add in that you gave up potentially lifesaving SA's to make this move and I don't see where this is overpowering.

In particular it does not let you fire at a ship that can get out of the normal ability of bore sight to target, if you did not have a initiative sink deficit, which the 1/2 AD front does. Or in other words, this most closely solves the issue with bore sight being negated by sinks, without adding additional flexability or arc to the bore sighted ship. Used against a fast nimble ship you simply get pulled away from the battle... used against a lumber ship, you get the reasonable expectation of being able to shoot your counterpart, though he may very well have his blast doors closed as he didn't need this SA taking up the slot.

Ripple

 

[CratZ]

What if! we forget Boresight weapons totally and make them all slow loading just like the brakiri beams.

 

[katadder]

my EA and Narn fleets would prefer their boresights over that.
they never have a problem with boresights anyway

 

[H]

given that the G'Quan has 2 beams that fire in a forward arc in the show, I hate boresight. and the poor G'Quan not only gets a boresight, it gets less damned dice than an omega which in theory has the same weapons because the narn sold them to earth!
i digress. Slow loading beams? eugh, you see EA ships for example fire shot after shot, making it slow loading is even worse than a boresight

 

[l33tpenguin]

given that the G'Quan has 2 beams that fire in a forward arc in the show, I hate boresight. and the poor G'Quan not only gets a boresight, it gets less damned dice than an omega which in theory has the same weapons because the narn sold them to earth!
i digress. Slow loading beams? eugh, you see EA ships for example fire shot after shot, making it slow loading is even worse than a boresight

This is something I don't like about the whole 'boresight' deal. The Omegas and G'Quans are seem firing their forward laser batteries at EXTREAM angles on more than one occasion. Why what appears to be a 20-30 degree off center angle can be considered 'bore sight' is beyond me.

of course, ACTA is a very liberal build of the combat on screen.

I just like playing with little Babylon 5 toys... thats what makes me happy

 

[katadder]

well dont forget with refits you can copy those moments

if g'quans were not generally boresight why when bombarding centauri prime would they be pointing directly at the planet? bit of a vunerable positioning of craft. if you could fire at angles better to not point straight at a planet so you have space to move.

 

[l33tpenguin]

well dont forget with refits you can copy those moments

if g'quans were not generally boresight why when bombarding centauri prime would they be pointing directly at the planet? bit of a vunerable positioning of craft. if you could fire at angles better to not point straight at a planet so you have space to move.

directly on is also the smallest profile for the G'quan in case of return fire from surface installations. Also, its not like the G'quan is maneuverable. 'dodge' isn't exactly a tactic it employs.

 

[katadder]

true but if your are expecting a returning avenging ship you dont want your unmaneuvrable G'quan pointing right at a planet.
and when talking a ship the size of a g'quan i doubt 2260 targeting computers would have a problem hitting you from the ground with ground to space weaponry no matter what angle you present.

 

[l33tpenguin]

It does make for a dramatic shot, though. A bunch of warships bearing down on a planet.

I mean, if you are gonna bombard a planet, ya gotta do it with some style

 

[katadder]

going by the show though didnt we see a starfury intercept a beam from a hyperion by placing flying in between it and the omega? theres all sorts of things you could get from the show that are there for drama but dont always work in a game.
I have no problems with boresight on either my earth or narn fleets and dont see what everyone gets so worked up about.

 

[Triggy]

going by the show though didnt we see a starfury intercept a beam from a hyperion by placing flying in between it and the omega? theres all sorts of things you could get from the show that are there for drama but dont always work in a game.
I have no problems with boresight on either my earth or narn fleets and dont see what everyone gets so worked up about.

Hear, hear.

This is an interpretation of on screen style more than anything and I know some don't agree but for me the EA and Narn fleets give quite a good impression of how they appear on the show.

 

[l33tpenguin]

going by the show though didnt we see a starfury intercept a beam from a hyperion by placing flying in between it and the omega? theres all sorts of things you could get from the show that are there for drama but dont always work in a game.
I have no problems with boresight on either my earth or narn fleets and dont see what everyone gets so worked up about.

Hear, hear.

This is an interpretation of on screen style more than anything and I know some don't agree but for me the EA and Narn fleets give quite a good impression of how they appear on the show.

If by 'intercepting' you mean was in a bad spot and was shot out of the air when the hyperion blasted away at the omega' yes. If you look, the beam still hits the omega, scoring a rather good sized hole in the rotating section. Its the hit that makes the one guy say 'if we take any more hits like that we're going to have to go zero-g' or something like that. Something I thought was actually cool, because it made sense. If the rotating section sustains too much damage, it would rip the ship apart because of the disproportional weight as it rotated. Kind of like a fan when one fan blade is too heavy.

Anyway, like I said, I'm just happy I get to play with little Babylon 5 toys, regardless of how accurate I feel they are toward what is shown on screen.

btw, did you know, that according the the actual modellers, the big main tube-like rotating section of Babylon 5 was 5-miles long. Thats how they built and measured it. Found that out the other day. That would make the station itself much larger.

Which, if you think about it, would make sense. 'A self contained world, five miles long' could just be refering to the world contained inside the station, not the whole station itself.