Idea: fix double and triple damage weapons

[Gargoyle117]

I just saw this thread today and found it particularly interesting as an ISA player. I find that the Whitestars tend to be far too inaccurate for my taste. Sure it’s nice when they hit, but they sure do miss a lot. Why is it that more powerful advanced weapons tend to miss more?

Burger, did you alter your proposal to affect the number of AD or the attack roll? If it does not affect the initial roll, I do not see any substantial change with your system over the old system.

The only difference would be the number of different critical hits. While under the old system, you might inflict 2 criticals and double the damage, the new system would inflict 4 different criticals, each with their own detrimental effects. This does not bother me too much, but it could slow the game down as others have mentioned.

Are there any plans or ideas for how to make it so Whitestars hit once and a while?

 

[emperorpenguin]

Are there any plans or ideas for how to make it so Whitestars hit once and a while?

There are plans, they won't be so hit and miss now :wink:

 

[Hash]

If anything I like proposals that reduce the number of or severity of crits so can't really say this has me excited although I do think that Burger's math is correct

I could happily play the game without crits at all - I think they make the whole thing far more up to luck than anything else. Sure it's fun when you get one but it sucks something awful when you lose a game just cause your opponent becomes a crit god or just fail to get any while your opponent just gets his fair share!

 

[emperorpenguin]

but if there were no crits (and barring any other changes) the game would take longer and it would just be dull!

 

[Reaverman]

but if there were no crits (and barring any other changes) the game would take longer and it would just be dull!

Not long ago, you mentioned that you wanted the 'crew' mechanism form the system. Because it slowed the game down, surely the crit damage system slows the game more than the 'Crew' system?

 

[emperorpenguin]

but if there were no crits (and barring any other changes) the game would take longer and it would just be dull!

Not long ago, you mentioned that you wanted the 'crew' mechanism form the system. Because it slowed the game down, surely the crit damage system slows the game more than the 'Crew' system?

Yes it does but I consider the crits to be interesting. Without them it's just a number tracking exercise.

 

[Target]

This system would fit into our house rules fine because.
Our latest crit chart has rarely any extra damage, which are like d6 or 3d6 dam. We don't double or Triple damage from crits anymore.
We fix crits on 4+, 3+ with all hands to deck including crits done that round with SA.
We have a version of redundancy system in place already.
I could see in the true version of ACTA the crit chart will need changed as precise does become scary as said at the beginning Sharlins would become scarier but then so would a Secundas with it's heavy array.
I like the idea a lot.
No d12's, they take forever to stop rolling & actually slow the game down a far bit. We did a 4-5 months of playin ACTA with d12's when trying to balance ships out which worked but the d12's fustrated us to much.

 

[Gargoyle117]

I'm with emperorpenguin here. Crits add a bit more spice to the game and more replay value. Without crits, you know that every time fleet X will defeat fleet Y. Not that X and Y are supposed to be balanced in this case, but simple stats will take over and eventually everything becomes horribly random.

Crits give the under dog a chance. Crits make a normally dull or mundane battle exciting. Crits force you to change your tactics on the fly. A battle plan is only good until the first shot is fired. Crits help make that true for ACTA. Not everyone likes having to change their strategy or worry about going to battle with a fleet that is less than a sure thing, but I love a challenge.

On the issue of crew, I would like to see something to balance them on Whitestars as well. All too often it seems that ships with a few damage boxes left are drifting crewless in space. Not the best plan for the ISA, but a great boon to those who would like some free ships.

 

[Reaverman]

I'm with emperorpenguin here. Crits add a bit more spice to the game and more replay value. Without crits, you know that every time fleet X will defeat fleet Y. Not that X and Y are supposed to be balanced in this case, but simple stats will take over and eventually everything becomes horribly random.

Crits give the under dog a chance. Crits make a normally dull or mundane battle exciting. Crits force you to change your tactics on the fly. A battle plan is only good until the first shot is fired. Crits help make that true for ACTA. Not everyone likes having to change their strategy or worry about going to battle with a fleet that is less than a sure thing, but I love a challenge.

On the issue of crew, I would like to see something to balance them on Whitestars as well. All too often it seems that ships with a few damage boxes left are drifting crewless in space. Not the best plan for the ISA, but a great boon to those who would like some free ships.

I'm actually not against stopping crits, I'd rather keep them. I am just saying that if you wanted to speed the game up, then removing the crit system would be the right direction.

 

[katadder]

without crits dont think i could have won so easily in a game tonight. was still fun or both sides though (lost a couple of ships to 6/6 crits too).

 

[Pauly_D]

KEEP CRITS
they add an extra randon element in the game, sometimes they help you sometimes they dont. but its what makes it more fun

 

[emperorpenguin]

I remember my former boss at GW arguing that he didn't like the randomness of dice rolls, they were unfair. He wanted the game to be run more on "averages" :shock:

Sure random rolls can really ruin a battleplan but that is part of the challenge!
Improvise, Adapt, Overcome!

 

[animus]

I dig this idea (to return to the main thread). I think it has great merit and think the playtesters should look at it - surely we're not so far along that such an idea couldn't be considered for 2e?

 

[katadder]

as i said before, would make too many crits. its ok in theory if you go with initial hit, but what happens when you get 5 hits from a TD beam (which i have done, just ask LDTD in the vassal campaign). thats 15 rolls with precise meaning likely to get 5 crits, instead of the 2 thats more likely for 5 hits.
ships will be critted to death, and thats not fun.

 

[animus]

A lot depends on what the new crit table looks like. A change like this always has to be taken with the whole combat system. More crits might be fine particularly if the worst ones are gone. DD and TD and now QD weapons should be more effective. I still like it and I don't like the critical tables that much. Here's waiting to see the new tables.

 

[CZuschlag]

It occurred to me that some races (Vorlons, Shadows, Drakh, Minbari) depend on criticals not just for effects but to also bring the total firepower of their fleets back into the damage/output curve. By doing this, we'd be distorting and dropping their total firepower.

Wow, wow, wow. Especially after we've spent all this time getting the Minbari to something that is (mostly) considered balanced. That's a painful give to re-examine all this stuff.

While this kind of change is feasible, there may need to be a MASSIVE tune or re-jiggering because of this. I'm not a pro, but I'd guesstimate the balance time on this kind of work effort at 3000-7000 man-hours.

Sounds like a 3e proposal. Sorry.

 

[Burger]

what happens when you get 5 hits from a TD beam

Exactly the same as would happen, if you get 15 hits from a single-damage beam.

 

[Ripple]

Funny thing is there aren't that many single damage beams that could put that out in any reasonable roll. It's not that I don't agree with your basic math, I do, its that I think the game was balanced with ships putting out a predictable number of critical effects. Your proposal changes that significantly, even if smooths out the critical damage/crew loss a bit.

It's a big change that would need some real thought.

It would be different if ships of certain pl's carried certain amounts of AD wtih certain traits...but they don't. Each ships is assigned AD and traits based on a 'feel' or old B5Wars stats or a clip from the show and then tinkered with to get it right. TD and single damage aren't interchangable just depending on the AD as ships stand right now. The other traits, range, arc have all gone into the balance...if you change the ability to cause crits all those other balances go out the window.

Ripple (who's tired and probably gutting his english...)

 

[Burger]

Funny thing is there aren't that many single damage beams that could put that out in any reasonable roll.

What about a squadron of 4 Strikehawks

 

[H]

you are making the big mistake of even thinking the game is balanced ;-)
but no, more crits is bad, Minbari and Drakh would become hideous in their crit potential, and I play Drakh!