Hyborias Fallen - Initial Impressions
- Thread starter MadDog
- Start date
I have yet to get the book due to holiday time financial constraints but I have a question about this discussion. What is it about the ability for a character to use a whip that's a big deal?
My beef with the whip is that as far as I recall, it is never used in combat in any of REH Conan stories. Thus, giving the Temptress the Weapon Proficiency seems non-canon and ends up being part of a larger package that points towards a very tacky image for the class as a whole.
If it was just the whip, I would of just rolled my eyes and moved on.
Just a question: Other than the story with Thalis, what other Conan stories does the whip in make an appearance ?
Mad Dog
My beef with the whip is that as far as I recall, it is never used in combat in any of REH Conan stories. Thus, giving the Temptress the Weapon Proficiency seems non-canon and ends up being part of a larger package that points towards a very tacky image for the class as a whole.
If it was just the whip, I would of just rolled my eyes and moved on.
Just a question: Other than the story with Thalis, what other Conan stories does the whip in make an appearance ?
Mad Dog
Just because Howard never penned a character using a whip in combat doesn't mean much, since the whip really isn't an effective combat weapon to begin with. Not that it isn't useful in the right hands, it just isn't what you'd want to use on the field of battle.
If it isnt an effective weapon, and if it was never used in combat in a Conan story, why give it to the Temptress, if all that it does is reinforce a cheezy stereotype ?
And finally, what is the problem with people using sexuality and seduction as a means to an end?
Nothing. I havnt complained about it. What I object to is that IMHO, due to the Whip, the Nymph, and gratuitous pictures of un/scantilly-clad women (nipple rings and tattoos and all), the whole Temptress theme comes off as a weak ploy to draw in the 13 year old boy market. I think Vincent/Mongoose is capable of much better.
Mad Dog
If it isnt an effective weapon, and if it was never used in combat in a Conan story, why give it to the Temptress, if all that it does is reinforce a cheezy stereotype ?
And finally, what is the problem with people using sexuality and seduction as a means to an end?
Nothing. I havnt complained about it. What I object to is that IMHO, due to the Whip, the Nymph, and gratuitous pictures of un/scantilly-clad women (nipple rings and tattoos and all), the whole Temptress theme comes off as a weak ploy to draw in the 13 year old boy market. I think Vincent/Mongoose is capable of much better.
Mad Dog
Servant of Bit-Yakin
Mongoose
Red Nails... Valeria.
@Mad Dog> No my wife hasn't read all of it yet, but she isn't too hung up on details. As to the whip, it appears in more stories than I thought, but even if not, making the whip available to the temptress isn't unreasonable. There are stories of gypsies that are reputed to be decent with them, whether or not it is true doesn't matter. And so what if it's a cheesy stereotype, some of us happen to like it. 
In Frost Giants Daughter there is no absolute that the woman statement that she is actually Ymir's Daughter. She doesn't tell Conan who she is, it is at the end when the Aesir say she is. And really this is only by reputation and her affiliation with Frost Giants, for all we truly know is that she is a scholar/temptress who promotes such a reputation. (Not that I believe this to be the case, just illustrating a point.)
As to the pictures...
There are only 5 nudes, if you flip through Scrolls of Skelos you will find 3 and those are in full COLOR. If you count the border of every book, there are over 300 exposed nipples in the whole Conan set. If this was marketed to 13 yr olds, I highly doubt Mongoose would be so blatent in there art content. I have taken enough of marketing in college to know that their market is realistically 18+, because this art is not an effective way to get a 13 yr. old's parental approval.
In Frost Giants Daughter there is no absolute that the woman statement that she is actually Ymir's Daughter. She doesn't tell Conan who she is, it is at the end when the Aesir say she is. And really this is only by reputation and her affiliation with Frost Giants, for all we truly know is that she is a scholar/temptress who promotes such a reputation. (Not that I believe this to be the case, just illustrating a point.)
As to the pictures...
There are only 5 nudes, if you flip through Scrolls of Skelos you will find 3 and those are in full COLOR. If you count the border of every book, there are over 300 exposed nipples in the whole Conan set. If this was marketed to 13 yr olds, I highly doubt Mongoose would be so blatent in there art content. I have taken enough of marketing in college to know that their market is realistically 18+, because this art is not an effective way to get a 13 yr. old's parental approval.
As I mentioned before, when i was in charge of RPGs it was my idea as the in-house Conan expert (I pale against Vincent, I'd like to point out). This game has always been about being faithful to Conan and not about being PC. We are sensitive and believe it or not many things that stepped over the line were rejected, but the line for Conan is different to most other fantasy RPGs. This is what, IMO, makes Conan truly special. Those who love it know we will not back off and let the game down.
Much as we respect all our customers the approach with Conan is that there are a dozen fantasy settings out there which ably cover a sanitised version of fantasy. As such not only do i stand squarely behind my decision to include the temptress, but i intend to play one when my Shemite scholar, the seedy Zargheba of Pelishtia croaks it as he's bound to do (being as he's a cult leader of Derketo masquerading as a pirate navigator on a Zingaran freebooter at present...well, at least i got my own cabin. Best investment ever at first level was to buy an attractive female slave). :shock:
Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
Turim said:
I think it's just an example of operator error here. As far as I can tell there was nothing in the original post that Bear would deem as offensive. The only thing missing is the fact that I at least would not want to be whipped by a woman.....
Ian: Yes I know that Mongoose has to make aprofit to exist- but let me ask you if it came down to it which is the bottom line: the love of the game or the money it makes you? I mean Wizards of the Coast has demonstrated that the soul can in fact be taken out of the game. A aquantance of mine who was a dealer back before WoC went big said that talking to them he got the impression that their idea of their fan base was a bunch of dimwits that take anything that was shoveled to them so long as it had scantily clad women- cause their fans tended to be hopeless with RL women- and brawny guys with weapons- cause they couldn't fight worth spit. What the 'content' was was in fact irrelevant. The damage they did to the D&D system with this philosphy is one of the reason I am here. Truth be told, I am not a big Conan fan- but the RP engine you created ficed a lot of errors in the 3.x system. I participate in a on-line RPG where we use it for a more traditional fanatsy setting- with Raven's Rules of Sorcery of course 8)- and it works like clockwork. Would Mongoose ever consider running the RP engine without the Conan material and in another fanatsy setting that might have a wider appeal in the market?
By and large when I lift parts of a quote it's because that's the bit I want top reply to. It doesn't mean censoring it. After all, the message is still there for all to see. If I wanted to moderate something i'd just pull the post.
On the subject of priorities I haven't faced a situation such as you describe, primarily because we select our games based on sound financial decisions which means that the games we lovingly create are already directed to make money for the company.
Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
Mongoose Old Bear said:
Whereas I do it for love of the game and if I ever make money on it- hey it's a bonus. I mean I've dumped nearly a sourcebook on this forum so far for zero profit and asked only that people donate some time to charity if they feel the need to repay me. I've also seen a lot of homebrew/nybrid that arose from needs in the game itself that are improvements in the system that could never be made in a sterile designing room floor.
I just think making it for just the money chokes a part of the soul. But of course in our materialistic society, money is God- though an unloving murderous one. 8)
SetWorshipper
Mongoose
MadDog said:
Yes mine has.
Raven Blackwell
Mongoose
Mongoose Old Bear said:
Er, no it's not. I think you accidently pushed the 'edit' button when you meant the 'quote' button and edited my original post instead of posting one of your own.
There's a sidestep if I heard one. Okay- I'll speak the language of business. How much in pounds and shillings is the Conan system worth to you? As in how much over your current salary would you have to be offered to abandon Mongoose and oh, I don't know- be on the exective board for a company that made toasters? I'm just curious.
In Frost Giants Daughter there is no absolute that the woman statement that she is actually Ymir's Daughter. She doesn't tell Conan who she is, it is at the end when the Aesir say she is. And really this is only by reputation and her affiliation with Frost Giants, for all we truly know is that she is a scholar/temptress who promotes such a reputation. (Not that I believe this to be the case, just illustrating a point.)
From her stats in Scrolls of Skelos, she is pretty much a god, herself.
There are only 5 nudes, if you flip through Scrolls of Skelos you will find 3 and those are in full COLOR. If you count the border of every book, there are over 300 exposed nipples in the whole Conan set. If this was marketed to 13 yr olds, I highly doubt Mongoose would be so blatent in there art content. I have taken enough of marketing in college to know that their market is realistically 18+, because this art is not an effective way to get a 13 yr. old's parental approval.
Its not the pictues (by themselves) ot the whip (by itself), but the combination of the whip, (some of the) pics, and the (some of) the descriptions (nymph and some others) that I find self-defeating.
The scrollwork in the books never struck me as unreasonable in its context, but I understand that is relative.
Mad Dog
From her stats in Scrolls of Skelos, she is pretty much a god, herself.
There are only 5 nudes, if you flip through Scrolls of Skelos you will find 3 and those are in full COLOR. If you count the border of every book, there are over 300 exposed nipples in the whole Conan set. If this was marketed to 13 yr olds, I highly doubt Mongoose would be so blatent in there art content. I have taken enough of marketing in college to know that their market is realistically 18+, because this art is not an effective way to get a 13 yr. old's parental approval.
Its not the pictues (by themselves) ot the whip (by itself), but the combination of the whip, (some of the) pics, and the (some of) the descriptions (nymph and some others) that I find self-defeating.
The scrollwork in the books never struck me as unreasonable in its context, but I understand that is relative.
Mad Dog
As I mentioned before, when i was in charge of RPGs it was my idea as the in-house Conan expert (I pale against Vincent, I'd like to point out). This game has always been about being faithful to Conan and not about being PC. We are sensitive and believe it or not many things that stepped over the line were rejected, but the line for Conan is different to most other fantasy RPGs. This is what, IMO, makes Conan truly special. Those who love it know we will not back off and let the game down.
I dont mean to imply that I want or desire some "sanitized" or PC. Clearly Conan RPG is more "mature" than typical 3.5. It is my opinion that the combination of elements of the Temptress detract from the package and are ultimately self-defeating. I am not the only person here (local) who read the Temptress and winced.
Mad Dog
I dont mean to imply that I want or desire some "sanitized" or PC. Clearly Conan RPG is more "mature" than typical 3.5. It is my opinion that the combination of elements of the Temptress detract from the package and are ultimately self-defeating. I am not the only person here (local) who read the Temptress and winced.
Mad Dog
I don't see why you are so upset by it, especially after all the evidence that it belongs.
In Conan, there is no proficiency for SM toys. There is, however proficiency for whips as _weapons_, for which there are no examples in Conan stories, if I recall correctly.
The descriptions of the nymph is vapid at best ("nymphs often run naked through the wilderness enjoying all things natural, even themselves") and totally non-canon.
Some of the pictures add nothing to the package and seem to me gratuitious (take the Nymph again - a picture of a naked woman reclining eating grapes - huh ?).
The combination of all three, IMHO, is self-defeating. How exactly can I take the Temptress seriously when they run around with whips, frollicing naked in the woods ? (Yes, I reallize they dont have to be Nymphs or use whips)
Mad Dog
In Conan, there is no proficiency for SM toys. There is, however proficiency for whips as _weapons_, for which there are no examples in Conan stories, if I recall correctly.
The descriptions of the nymph is vapid at best ("nymphs often run naked through the wilderness enjoying all things natural, even themselves") and totally non-canon.
Some of the pictures add nothing to the package and seem to me gratuitious (take the Nymph again - a picture of a naked woman reclining eating grapes - huh ?).
The combination of all three, IMHO, is self-defeating. How exactly can I take the Temptress seriously when they run around with whips, frollicing naked in the woods ? (Yes, I reallize they dont have to be Nymphs or use whips)
Mad Dog
Servant of Bit-Yakin
Mongoose
...it's a game, i don't think you're suppose to take it seriously. you're suppose to have fun.
