Hyborias Fallen - Initial Impressions

Zul Daire

Mongoose
MadDognewstand. Kinky/deviant/titilating sex has always been a part of the Conan myth.[/i said:
Did you see the bit about the Nymph ? "Run naked through the wilderness" ? Puh-lease.
Mad Dog

Sounds pretty good to me!!
 

MadDog

Mongoose
If something is in REH's Conan works, I hope to see it (or expect to see it) in the RPG, even if it goes against our post-modern, alarmist, politically correct, totalitarian mores and values. The day Mongoose has no interest in respecting REH's work, I'm looking elsewhere for materials, and spending money elsewhere. I think I speak for many of us. Right?

Yogah, whips as a combat weapon, to the best of my recollection, are not REH. Nymphs who frolic naked in the woods, are not REH.

Presented another way, REH committed suicide. Should this be a promoted theme ?

Mad Dog
 

MadDog

Mongoose
Dude, you are not the same guy who started that drawn out "Pornography in Conan RPG" thread are you.

Nope.

Mad Dog
 

Old Bear

Mongoose
Okay. As I guessed Vincent wasn't behind the class but was given the assignment by you.

That is how this business tends to work.

True- but if his almost finacee Ms. Price's book is to believed REH tended to throw the sultry woman in to increase the chance of editors of the time to buy his material than literary value. Well, that and that absurb facination some guys have about out of control lesibans......

But as the consumer resistance here might prove as Howard as it may be a Temptress doesn't translate well in a vital part of a RPG system. RPGs like video games lend themselves to combat more readily than other aspects of fanatsy fiction- with the possible exceptions of magic, fantastic locales and political intrege as well.


Whilst all of us at Mongoose are interested in everything you guys have to say (which is why we have one of the most open forum policies in the gaming business) there's a lot more to consumer trends than is said here and i think the sales numbers speak for themselves.
 

Old Bear

Mongoose
In and of itself the Temptress class, while (IMHO) dangerously close to a prestige class, is not inherently flawed. However, IMHO, the execution of some elements of the class are. THe descriptions and elements of the class, combined with numerous pictures of partially-clad women give the impression that the whole class is designed as a lure for 13 year old boys. It seems to reinforce the women-as-sexpots stereotype as opposed to some of the better REH strong women characters such as Belit or Red Valeria. Thats the real shortchanging.

I'm pretty sure that in our group both Belit and Valeria would be pirates, not temptresses.


It too cliche. And its not even REH-ish.


You are of course entitled to your opinion.

Sure, whips were in some REH stories, but were they ever used in combat (not that I recall, although I might of missed it)? The whip is out of place, and it undermines the attempt to make the class serious. A barbarian uses an axe to fight. Barbarian-> needs to fight -> learns axe. On the other hand, the Temptress is a "face" character, not combat oriented at all, so where would the impetus be to learn such an otherwise odd weapon as the exotic whip ?


Presumably to do the sort of things that they do in the Conan stories you refer to above?


Considering the picture that accompanies the description, are you telling me this seriously ? Lets assume you are, and consider the class for a moment. Am I _really_ supposed to believe that in the Hyborian age, an age of violence where the veneer of civilization rubs thin, that we have beautiful women who scamper about naked in the woods ? With whips ?

Mad Dog

I'm always serious.
 

Netherek

Mongoose
As to a hot piece of @$$ having a spell like effect, and naked woman running around in the forests....

Frost Giants Daughter anyone...

As to the use of a whip Mad dog, Howard didn't cover everything that would exist in his age. For instance, I find it strange that in a world with Plate armor, there is no barding for your horse! :shock:

As to the gripes against the imagery, REH probably would approve, as he had many of the elements in his stories, and it's soo anti-PC (a civilized invention) that I find it very fitting and quite refreshing. JMO. And really, a harsh savage world Dominated by MEN, what do you think it'd look like?

Finally, if you don't like something, don't use it. The book is nicely done, and a far cry better than the garbage WotC has been putting out.
 

The King

Cosmic Mongoose
Yogah of Yag said:
"respect without criticism is called worship."

...and worship is for those weak minds who cannot fathom Science.
Many scientists, Einstein among them, believe in God. Moreover it would be very unscientific to express that god doesn't exist if you can't proove his existence (or inexistence).

And then logic only applies to thought because science can be very unlogic sometimes.
 

The King

Cosmic Mongoose
Raven Blackwell said:
But as the consumer resistance here might prove as Howard as it may be a Temptress doesn't translate well in a vital part of a RPG system. RPGs like video games lend themselves to combat more readily than other aspects of fanatsy fiction- with the possible exceptions of magic, fantastic locales and political intrege as well.
If you ever look at OGL Ancients (from Mongoose) on ancient Greece and Egypt, there are only 2 warrior classes, most of the rest having d4 basis. There is the "courtesan" class that is like Conan's temptress but has a more social role.
 

MadDog

Mongoose
As to the use of a whip Mad dog, Howard didn't cover everything that would exist in his age. For instance, I find it strange that in a world with Plate armor, there is no barding for your horse!

To the best of my recollection, the whip wasnt used in combat in any REH stories, so to say whip proficiency is canon would be incorrect, wouldnt it ?

As to the gripes against the imagery, REH probably would approve, as he had many of the elements in his stories, and it's soo anti-PC (a civilized invention) that I find it very fitting and quite refreshing. JMO. And really, a harsh savage world Dominated by MEN, what do you think it'd look like?

The imagery gives the wrong impression - women as objects as opposed to characters. How many bare-breasted pictures does it take (some with nipple rings) to drive this point across ? Dont get me wrong, I like women as much as the next guy, but the impression the temptress package gives is a cheezy attempt to grab the 13 year old gamer market. I mean, I like cheeseburgers too, but that doesnt mean I want pictures of them plastered over my Conan material if it doesnt add anything to the material.

In a world dominated by men, I have my doubts that beautiful women would scamper around playfully in the woods. After all, if the temptress is a force of opposition to the male dominated society, where is the impetus to indulge in such a male fantasy role such as the nymph ?

Mad Dog
 
Which is why I don't work for this business or in a 'professional' matter. Creativity to me is a form or Art not Commerce. Plus I never would like to put in a place where I couldn't say no to a assignment I found distasteful.

Without professional companies though where would gaming be? Also, any freelance writer is always free to refuse work. We don't go round to Vincent's house with thumb screws (or dare i say whips?) :wink:

It is always about the money, isn't it? 8)


Everybody here has bills to pay and families to keep, so yes, money is important. It's also what enables Mongose to carry on producing games and finance future projects. The essence of any successful company is a firm grasp of monetary issues. I'd like nothing more for everything to be easy going and carefree. Sure would be less stressful.
 

Old Bear

Mongoose
In a world dominated by men, I have my doubts that beautiful women would scamper around playfully in the woods. After all, if the temptress is a force of opposition to the male dominated society, where is the impetus to indulge in such a male fantasy role such as the nymph ?

Mad Dog

I think somebody already mentioned the Frost Giant's daughter...
 

Turim

Mongoose
Raven Blackwell/Mongoose Old Bear Hybrid: If directly editing someone's personal post to make them look like they have multiple personality disorder doesn't confirm our suspicions about corporate big-wigs, I don't know what will :lol:.

(In case this is a PC problem on my end, disregard this entire post)
 
I happen to like the Temptress class and see no problems with the whip. My wife happens to like it too and is modifing her existing character with the new class, so don't say its there for 13 year old boys.

She was roleplaying a thief character based on charisma and charisma skills that fit in excellent with the new Black Widow variant. We've recently taken onto a boat and are pirating. Her character is being remade as a temptress/thief Black Widow. Top it off with the whip proficiency and she's managed to intimidate the crew and become its bosun as well.

I've managed to talk my DM into letting my Pirate take on the Pirate/Noble Sea Captain variant.

Off topic - Kudos on the multiclass variants. We enjoy them MUCH more than having Prestige Classes. Only change we made is you don't have to have 10/10 levels, but you do have to declare your Class variant and some variant abilities do have level requirements.
 

Foxworthy

Mongoose
I have yet to get the book due to holiday time financial constraints but I have a question about this discussion. What is it about the ability for a character to use a whip that's a big deal? The whip isn't really a combat weapon due tot he fact that it can't deal lethal damage, can't threaten square and the use of it provokes attacks of opportunity. So your giving a class a weapon feat in the use of a weapon that really isn't a suitable combat feat instead of something useful like Two Weapon Combat which most other classes get. Of course if you don't give the class the use of the whip feat you buck the trend of temptress like characters in Conan stories that use whips? That be like saying that not all Gunderlands used Pike's in Conan so the Gunderlands shouldn't be proficient in pikes. If the argument is about the apparent sexism in the use then you have a long list of other non- politically correct things in this RPG to fix as well. Hell the Shemite race rules can be a bit offensive.

I can't defend the nymph idea mostly cause I only know that one line you quoted and not the whole entry. But the idea of a beautiful women who protects the forest from intruders basically adds up to the word nymph in my head. Or maybe dryad...

Hopefully I'll be able to get the book sometime soon though. Just my two cents.
 

The King

Cosmic Mongoose
The nymph could be applied to the women encountered in the valley of the lost women where Conan is enthralled by the magic of the place and set on the sacrificial altar.
 

Netherek

Mongoose
@Mad Dog: Read Frost Giants Daughter.

It is Howards second Conan story, which is about Conan madly chasing a naked woman through the Asgard forests...

Just because Howard never penned a character using a whip in combat doesn't mean much, since the whip really isn't an effective combat weapon to begin with. Not that it isn't useful in the right hands, it just isn't what you'd want to use on the field of battle.

And finally, what is the problem with people using sexuality and seduction as a means to an end? One does not have perform sexual acts to be a seducer, so it's not like a class that is representative of whores. Cleopatra is a great example of a Noble/Temptress as it was her ability to manipulate Ceasar through beauty and desire, not through political genious. I am by no way saying she was smart, as she was. She played to her strengths, and those strengths eventually led to her downfall.

If you don't like the class, don't use it. If you really have an issue with the whip, don't use it, though it's silly since the temptress isn't much better at combat than a scholar...
 

MadDog

Mongoose
I'm pretty sure that in our group both Belit and Valeria would be pirates, not temptresses.

I am not implying that either would be approriate as a Temptress, but rather display them as a strong character, in contrast to what I think the whole Temptress package reads as.

Mad Dog Sure, whips were in some REH stories, but were they ever used in combat (not that I recall, although I might of missed it)? The whip is out of place, and it undermines the attempt to make the class serious. A barbarian uses an axe to fight. Barbarian-> needs to fight -> learns axe. On the other hand, the Temptress is a "face" character, not combat oriented at all, so where would the impetus be to learn such an otherwise odd weapon as the exotic whip ?

Presumably to do the sort of things that they do in the Conan stories you refer to above?

Your answer implies the whip is used in SM parties (sinking into cliche), as opposed to as a weapon.

Once again, is there _any_ instance of a whip being used in combat in a REH Conan story which would seem to imply whip as a Weapon Proficiency is appropriate ? THis whole whip discussion is pretty academic; if it was just the whip, I would of rolled my eyes and moved on. Taken with other points, however......

I'm always serious.

I am seriously considering that you arent being serious about being serious. : )

Mad Dog
 

MadDog

Mongoose
Everybody here has bills to pay and families to keep, so yes, money is important. It's also what enables Mongose to carry on producing games and finance future projects. The essence of any successful company is a firm grasp of monetary issues. I'd like nothing more for everything to be easy going and carefree. Sure would be less stressful.

I dont expect Mongoose to sit up and take notice of my beefs with this product. After all, I am a single customer in a sea of customers. I have no illusions on that part. However, I wonder if anyone at Mongoose in charge of this product asked themselves whether the Temptress adds to Conan or is a bigger risk alienating the already underrepresented female gamer population ?

Ad Old Bear said, the sales numbers will tell the story.

Mad Dog
 
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