Hyborias Fallen - Initial Impressions
- Thread starter MadDog
- Start date
And just what do you think Thalis, Salome and Valeria were doing with those whips? Playing? They were definitely used as weapons to hurt people.
From what I remember of the stories, it certainly wasnt combat. You dont need a proficiecny to pick it up and use it casually. You do need a weapon proficiency to use it in combat effectly.
Once again, the whip, by itself would only make me roll my eyes. THe whip, in combination with other elements of the Temptress class, make me feel like the effort was shot in the foot.
Mad Dog
From what I remember of the stories, it certainly wasnt combat. You dont need a proficiecny to pick it up and use it casually. You do need a weapon proficiency to use it in combat effectly.
Once again, the whip, by itself would only make me roll my eyes. THe whip, in combination with other elements of the Temptress class, make me feel like the effort was shot in the foot.
Mad Dog
Servant of Bit-Yakin
Mongoose
In that case you should have been careful when you bought the book.
MadDog said:
You are missing the point. In the story, it really is her reputation among the Aesir. She never informs Conan as to who she is. So my point is that you can use her in either form, as a godling, or temptress/scholar or other combination. Scrolls of Skelos take the Aesir perspective, and that is probably an accurate one, but it isn't really definative in the story.
MadDog said:
You also seem to miss that there are variants of the temptress that are not sexual in nature and are in fact Strong in a more masculine way, such as the Manhunter (Amazon), and Shield Maiden (Valkyrie). And please don't forget you can have MALE tempters that are either like Cassanova, or in the really extreme watch the movie Alexander. You just need to remove the emotional response and find how it fits in the world, then decide whether you want to include them in your game or not.
Finally, the "Fallen" has as much material dedicated to each class as its predecessors, so you haven't really lost anything.
Samvail1
Mongoose
Mongoose Old Bear said:
I have to chip in here and say that we found the writing for Fallen to be absolutely superb. It's not just a piece of 'crunch' it's wonderfully written and completely in line with the feel of Howards world.
The Temptress class, weather you like it or not, is a necessary part of the Howard canon. I have been trying to create something similar since the rules first appeared.
For all the vocal people who dislike the Temptress, there are a lot more people who like it and are satisfied and don't feel the need to criticize other people's hard work.
For my money, Vincent is one of Mongooses finest assets as his knowledge, understanding and sympathy for the works of Howard are unmatched.
Sam
I haven't seen the temptress yey, and probably will not see in the near future. But after first looking and reading throught the core book, my friend (who is a huge Conan fan) commented that what is missing is a temptress class (ok, ok, so he used a different word for that...)
Ohh, and BTW:
Have you ever tried to pick a whip and use it casually? Its extremly hard to use without hitting yourself... not to mention hitting other people, or looping it around thier legs or something...
arnon
Ohh, and BTW:
MadDog said:
Have you ever tried to pick a whip and use it casually? Its extremly hard to use without hitting yourself... not to mention hitting other people, or looping it around thier legs or something...
arnon
Galt Hagar's Son
Mongoose
Mad-Dog,
I really respect your principled defense of your viewpoint, which I share.
The Nymph class, how lame.
What would you do if your PC tries to multiclass from nomad to nymph?
Really, I would have rather had something on crimelords, zamorian thieving guilds, or hyperborean mammoth handlers.
No reason to invent a neww class just burn 25 pages or so.
Why couldn't you just add some feats and make a temptress a version of a commoner NPC class with a high CHA?
Better yet lets incorporate the Macho Women With Guns Text into Conan?
T-and A? YEah baby!
I really respect your principled defense of your viewpoint, which I share.
The Nymph class, how lame.
What would you do if your PC tries to multiclass from nomad to nymph?
Really, I would have rather had something on crimelords, zamorian thieving guilds, or hyperborean mammoth handlers.
No reason to invent a neww class just burn 25 pages or so.
Why couldn't you just add some feats and make a temptress a version of a commoner NPC class with a high CHA?
Better yet lets incorporate the Macho Women With Guns Text into Conan?
T-and A? YEah baby!
You also seem to miss that there are variants of the temptress that are not sexual in nature and are in fact Strong in a more masculine way, such as the Manhunter (Amazon), and Shield Maiden (Valkyrie).
As I have said before I dont object to all of the temptress. Some of the parts work for the Temptress as a serious class.
And please don't forget you can have MALE tempters that are either like Cassanova, or in the really extreme watch the movie Alexander.
That would explain all the pictures of scantilly-clad male Tempters in cheesecake poses, wouldnt it ?
You just need to remove the emotional response and find how it fits in the world, then decide whether you want to include them in your game or not.
There is nothing overly emotional about being dissatisfied with a product.
Mad Dog
As I have said before I dont object to all of the temptress. Some of the parts work for the Temptress as a serious class.
And please don't forget you can have MALE tempters that are either like Cassanova, or in the really extreme watch the movie Alexander.
That would explain all the pictures of scantilly-clad male Tempters in cheesecake poses, wouldnt it ?
You just need to remove the emotional response and find how it fits in the world, then decide whether you want to include them in your game or not.
There is nothing overly emotional about being dissatisfied with a product.
Mad Dog
For all the vocal people who dislike the Temptress, there are a lot more people who like it and are satisfied and don't feel the need to criticize other people's hard work.
I dont care if all but me like it. I have every right to criticize the parts of the work I feel to be sub-standard. I am not a sheep.
Mad Dog
I dont care if all but me like it. I have every right to criticize the parts of the work I feel to be sub-standard. I am not a sheep.
Mad Dog
The King
Cosmic Mongoose
Though I feel MadDog can defend himself, I feel the right to tell my point as many others already expressed theirs in others topics when they weren't directly concerned by these posts of mine.Samvail1 said:
If you read what MadDog initially wrote he just wrote it in this topic. He didn't even use bold text to explain what part he didn't like.
First, I feel good to know what to expect from a new book and I thank MadDog for this.
Second, I never read any text in this forum telling we had to tell only good reviews of game books. Thus people can say what they liked and what they disliked.
And you can't even say that if people dislike the book (what they didn't say actually) they shouldn't have bought it because it is too late for this. Anyway I could still retort if you feel annoyed why did you bother to read his post and reply.
Samvail1
Mongoose
I was just trying to suggest that Mad Dog could air his grievence more widely by writing his own review and fully detailing his concerns, rather than short comments, constrained by a forum full of Conan fans.
The choice is Mad Dogs, of course. Follow my suggestion, or continue to post here. I care not. I was just trying to be helpful.
And, The King, don't start on the whole, "if you bothered to read his first post" thing. That gets right up my nose!
Sam
The choice is Mad Dogs, of course. Follow my suggestion, or continue to post here. I care not. I was just trying to be helpful.
And, The King, don't start on the whole, "if you bothered to read his first post" thing. That gets right up my nose!
Sam
The King, the issue is not the criticism - which is fine. I think it is the continued browbeating. MadDog stated what he did not like. Fine. The author gave his reasoning (which he didn't have to do, and I would not be surprised if he stopped offering such insights). Instead of saying that he disagreed or whatever, MadDog then went on to demand justifications for "trash", even though the author already gave the justification. It is fine that he disagreed with the justification, but why all the disrespectful language?
MadDog then asked for more instances of whip-wielding in REH Conan stories and when those were offered, he declared they did not count and continued on in that vein. He asked for an example of a single character running naked in the wilderness. When that was given he said it didn't count.
Then one of the high-ups of Mongoose shows up and people then start in accusing them of making a profit off of a product and of pandering to 13 year olds. I was rather offended by the amount of disrespect shown to someone dedicated to giving us the best Conan roleplaying game ever. Not a single thank you was given to Mongoose Old Bear for offering a bit of insight - just further demands for "proof" and further complaints that all the proof offered didn't count. Even if someone disagrees with the reasoning behind the proficiency and line of text, it is at least nice to be offered someone else's viewpoint.
All in all, it seems he is upset over a weapon proficiency, one line of text and one picture in a 128 page product - and created 7 pages of arguments over something trivial and should have been settled within a few posts. It is great that he stated what he disliked; as I said it is nice to see another viewpoint. However, it would have been nice if he had included in his "first impressions" a few things that he DID like.
MadDog then asked for more instances of whip-wielding in REH Conan stories and when those were offered, he declared they did not count and continued on in that vein. He asked for an example of a single character running naked in the wilderness. When that was given he said it didn't count.
Then one of the high-ups of Mongoose shows up and people then start in accusing them of making a profit off of a product and of pandering to 13 year olds. I was rather offended by the amount of disrespect shown to someone dedicated to giving us the best Conan roleplaying game ever. Not a single thank you was given to Mongoose Old Bear for offering a bit of insight - just further demands for "proof" and further complaints that all the proof offered didn't count. Even if someone disagrees with the reasoning behind the proficiency and line of text, it is at least nice to be offered someone else's viewpoint.
All in all, it seems he is upset over a weapon proficiency, one line of text and one picture in a 128 page product - and created 7 pages of arguments over something trivial and should have been settled within a few posts. It is great that he stated what he disliked; as I said it is nice to see another viewpoint. However, it would have been nice if he had included in his "first impressions" a few things that he DID like.
