Hyborias Fallen - Initial Impressions

[MadDog]

I just picked up a copy of H. Fallen yestrrday - suprised to see it in the stores so soon.

After lightly reading over the book, here are some comments:

1) The Temptress. A new, class, the temptress, seems rather tacky. Vincent has tried hard to make the class a "serious" one, but the effort is almost totally undermined by several really cheezy cliches.

First, the Temptress is proficient with all simple weapons and whips. Yes, you heard it. Whips. How utterly cliche.

Second, in the multi-classing options, we have the Temptress/Borderer, aka "The Nymph". It contains such descriptions as "Nymphs often run naked through the wilderness, enjoying all things natural, even themselves". Wow. Double-utterly-cliche. Mongoose should be ashamed of printing such drivel. Are we playing "Conan, the RPG", or The Cheezy Soft Porn Late Night TV RPG" ?

At this point, I dont know who to blame for this, Vincent (who wrote it), or Mongoose (who told Vincent to write the Temptress). Why wasnt the Bandit (official class from S&P) included in the place of the Temptress ? Sure, I knew the potential for the new class to be lame, but I feel like this is money not well spent.

2) New Poisons. The book contains a number of new poisons, which are a welcome addition. Although if I recall correctly, some of the craft DCs for some of the posions are borked. Take the Poison Dart Frog. Craft DC 22. Why such a high DC for something that all you have to do is rub the weapon on the frog (A cursory check on the internet seems to indicate this is the case, but I am not a biologist) ? Also included are 3 alchemical items.

3) New Feats. A selection of new feats. One or two might be repeats from other books (I havnt checked for sure), but most are interesting additions.

4) New Spells:

Divination: Seek the Broken Vow
Hypnotism: Dream Dance, Inviolate Oath, Peacocks Beauty, Seduction
Sea Witchery: Whirlpool
Weather Witching: Waterspout

5) The usual multiclasing options

So, a toss up as far as I am concerned, whether it was worth the $25. The Temptress could of been something far better, but it sunk into the cliche sea. The other material is useful, and the proofing is far better than the hardbound books.

Mad Dog

 

[VincentDarlage]

First, the Temptress is proficient with all simple weapons and whips. Yes, you heard it. Whips. How utterly cliche.

The whips come from the temptress of Xuthal of the Dusk (the Slithering Shadow), Thalis. I also am fond of the illustration for Chapter II of Xuthal of the Dusk as found in The Coming of Conan the Cimmerian. That illustration and character was one of the inspirations for that proficiency choice. Salome from A Witch Shall Be Born also fits into this category and even Valeria (although a pirate) used an impromptu whip on a serving girl in Red Nails.

Symbolically, the whip also works. Lion tamers use whips - so why not the man-taming temptress? The symbol of the whip is one of mastery. If someone has been whipped, he has been mastered. This is what the temptress does. She rises from oppression and masters the oppressors. A whip is a great symbol for this.

Those are the reasons I gave them the proficiency: evidence from three REH Conan stories and symbolism. I am not that familiar with temptresses, so I just read the stories by Howard (non-Conan too) and whips were present in a few of them for this type of character. When one isn't that familiar with the topic, it is hard to know what is cliche and what isn't. I just took what I found in Howard's works and went with it. Sorry you didn't like it and found it cliche.

One could argue that a barbarian with a sword is a cliche, too. Many of the class and/or racial proficiences in the game are based on stereotypes and cliches. Would you have been happier if I had made the Temptress proficient with the Tulwar?

Second, in the multi-classing options, we have the Temptress/Borderer, aka "The Nymph".

As for the nymph, most of that came from legends and stories told by American loggers in the northwest USA during the pioneer era. Not particularly Hyborian, but I couldn't find a mortal Howardian temptress/borderer, so I looked elsewhere for an archetype to follow. Once I stumbled upon those tales of yesteryear, I realised I did have an REH character similar to that; thus I did take the Frost Giant's Daughter to be an inspiration here (who scampers around naked in a frozen wilderness), although she is obviously something more than a mortal temptress.

Hopefully you find some use for the class beyond the whips. Just because a character is proficient does not mean the character must use it. One can run a Black Kingdom character who does not use a spear if one wants.

Again, I hope one proficiency choice and a single class-combo does not ruin it for you entirely and that you find a plethora of other things that do inspire you within it.

 

[VincentDarlage]

2) New Poisons. The book contains a number of new poisons, which are a welcome addition. Although if I recall correctly, some of the craft DCs for some of the posions are borked. Take the Poison Dart Frog. Craft DC 22. Why such a high DC for something that all you have to do is rub the weapon on the frog (A cursory check on the internet seems to indicate this is the case, but I am not a biologist) ? Also included are 3 alchemical items.

I took the Craft DC to mean the check to collect it safely and without diluting the poison. If you feel it is too high, then lower it. I am not a biologist either.

 

[VincentDarlage]

3) New Feats. A selection of new feats. One or two might be repeats from other books (I havnt checked for sure), but most are interesting additions.

A few are repeats because I figured players may not have access to some of the sourcebooks, but are more likely to buy these guides.

 

[MadDog]

The whips come from the temptress of Xuthal of the Dusk (the Slithering Shadow), Thalis. "As in a nightmare Natala felt her tunic being stripped from her, and the next instant Thalis had jerked up her wrists and bound them to the ring, where she hung, naked as the day she was born, her feet barely touching the floor. Twisting her head, Natala saw Thalis unhook a jewel-handled whip from where it hung on the wall, near the ring. The lashes consisted of seven round silk cords, harder yet more pliant than leather thongs."

Considering _you_ have already defined Thalis as a Noble, there is no logical connection between Temptress as a class and the whip proficiency. Second, how about the mechanics of the getting whip proficiency as a class ? I can just see Temptress School now. Basic Disguise, Seduction 101, The Art of Dancing, and....oh....Exotic Weapon Proficiency Whip. Huh ?

Its just too freaking cheezy. Shame.

So how do you write off the Nymph trash ? I think you can do better, Vincent.

Mad Dog

 

[MadDog]

I took the Craft DC to mean the check to collect it safely and without diluting the poison. If you feel it is too high, then lower it. I am not a biologist either.

Handling a frog with gloves doesnt seem to require a DC22 check, IMHO.

As a general related question, how would you handle reducing Craft DC if the person making the poison is immune to poision (Spawn of Dagoth Hill) ? Being immune makes your life a whole lot easier for poison manufacture, one would think.

Mad Dog

 

[VincentDarlage]

So how do you write off the Nymph trash ?

Mad Dog

I am done with this thread.

 

[MadDog]

It is what it is. Sorry if that upsets you, but from your past material, I know you can do better. Maybe this is unfair ? Is Mongoose dictating some of the material content ?

Mad Dog

 

[argo]

Dude, MadDog, you are being extremely disrespectful. And I don't bame Vincent for stepping out, this is the kind of thread that got all discussion of official fiction banned on the WotC boards.

1) The Temptress. A new, class, the temptress, seems rather tacky. Vincent has tried hard to make the class a "serious" one, but the effort is almost totally undermined by several really cheezy cliches.

First, the Temptress is proficient with all simple weapons and whips. Yes, you heard it. Whips. How utterly cliche.

And yet, oddly enough, it is a cliche that REH himself was alredy a primary contributor to. Howard's female villans (indcluding several notable "temptresses") frequently had not-so-subtle S&M overtones to them. It made for good cover art and that sold magazines at the newstand. Kinky/deviant/titilating sex has always been a part of the Conan myth.

I mean, the core rulebook itself has a bare breast on every page and you are going to break Vincent's balls for writting a "Temptress" class and giving them whip proficiency? :roll:


As for the poision Craft DC, that represents several things: finding the frog and catching it, collecting the poision without poisioning yourself, and then preserving the poision so that it doesn't spoil (standard poision has no shelf-life). Making real-world arguments about "all you have to do is rub the weapon on the frog" or "wearing gloves" is exactly the wrong thing to do in a d20 game because the d20 system is abstract exactly so that players and GM's are not required to worry about things like this. If my player brought up the gloves thing I would (maybe) give him a +2 equipment bonus for the gloves. Or maybe I would simply rule that gloves are part of the equipment required to safely collect poision and so assign a -2 equipment penalty to any attmpts to collect poision without golves. Or maybe I'd just tell him to shut up and not worry about unimportant details.

Immunity to poision grants you the not-so-trivial benefit of being imune to poision. It doesn't help you find or gather poisions any better.

Later.

 

[Azgulor]

Haven't picked up Hyboria's Fallen yet but will be doing so after Christmas.

MadDog, it's obvious that you were disappointed in your purchase (fair enough). However, your initial criticisms seem to stem solely from your opinions with little apparent knowledge or consideration of Howard's Conan material. I'm far from a Conan expert, but if you haven't picked up on the fact that Howard writes the occassional femme-fatale I'm guessing you haven't read much Conan. Temptress is about as Conan as Barbarian and Sorcerer.

Despite your condescending tone, the author attempted to explain the Conan-canon precedent for the whip proficiency which has so offended your sensibilities. Vincent also takes the time to explain the source of inspiration for one of the multi-class combos and how he arrived at the DC in question. Why you then felt the need to become even more insulting is beyond me.

And for the "wouldn't recognize the the obvious if it bit you in the ass" award, I'm guessing the character (Thaldris?) wasn't statted out as a Temptress because prior to Hyboria's Fallen no such class existed and Vincent worked with the classes that were available.

Azgulor

 

[Galt Hagar's Son]

Honestly, though what Mad Dog raises is pretty much on point, despite the tone he used.

When does being such a hot piece of a$$, give a person near spell like powers?

OK I don't have the book, so yes, I am only going off what others mentioned; but I just don't get it.

I was hoping a new class like brigand/ bandit/ Kozak would have been used, something that would have been playable by PCs.

I'm not one to rally up in support of 'debunking the female sterotype ' or any womens' lib. stuff, I just rather have something thats usable in the pages printed or have something useful to PCs.
Just my 2 cents.

In any case I just want to say that I really appreciate the dedication and devotion put forth by Vincent to this and to the fact he reads and answers emails all the time. Three cheers to that!

 

[Azgulor]

How can you critique a book you admit you haven't seen? Granted, once I pick up the book, I may not like the Temptress class. However, given that most of the classes are combat-oriented, I fail to see how the Temptress wouldn't be a suitable PC class, especially in a less combat-oriented game. They sound like suitable counterparts to Thieves, Nobles, and Scholars. Hell, how many posts suggest that sholars (at least sorcerers) should be NPCs only?

Bandit from S&P? Ok, I can see that. However, it's ground that's been covered already. Brigand? Isn't that just another name for bandit? Kozak - if we're going to start developing cultural classes, I'm re-opening my "Why isn't there a Knight class" thread.

Any of the ideas you've presented are valid. I just don't see what's wrong with the Temptress class (in theory if not in execution). It's hardly been a secret that it was going to be in the book and it's very much in-genre with regards to Conan.

Don't like it? Don't use it. I can usually find a section in just about every d20 supplement I've purchased that I don't care for or won't use. It doesn't keep me from using the rest of the book.

Buyer's remorse? Happens to the best of us. Either wait and read some reviews before buying next time or hand over your money and know you're rolling the dice. I'll bet on Mongoose and Vincent over any other d20/OGL company or author in the industry. Their track record with the Conan RPG thus far has earned them the benefit of the doubt and my dollar.

Azgulor

 

[Ant]

... When does being such a hot piece of a$$, give a person near spell like powers? ...

Mmm... think about the different meanings of words like glamor/glamour, enchanting, ...

Cordialement,
Ant

 

[Teutonic]

Is that not the point for Raven to say a word or two...?
:lol:

 

[The King]

Please let "good critics only" for dictatures and let the customers express themselves.

It is very funny there we can't make any bad critic of game books. That's the same idea as "vote for me of you die" (or go to hell).
This is probably their conception of democracy applied to every level.

So if I have to go to hell because I make some critics, be sure many will first show me and paved the way. :twisted:

SPQR.

 

[MadDog]

Dude, MadDog, you are being extremely disrespectful. And I don't bame Vincent for stepping out, this is the kind of thread that got all discussion of official fiction banned on the WotC boards.

Argo, my $25 I spent on the product gives me _every_ right to critique the product. You will notice I never said "Vincent/Mongoose sux" ! Or "dont buy H. Fallen !".

MadDog wrote:

And yet, oddly enough, it is a cliche that REH himself was alredy a primary contributor to. Howard's female villans (indcluding several notable "temptresses") frequently had not-so-subtle S&M overtones to them. It made for good cover art and that sold magazines at the newstand. Kinky/deviant/titilating sex has always been a part of the Conan myth.

Argo, Vinvent _himself_ already defined Thalis as a Noble, so he cant come back later and try and connect Thalis as a rationale for whip proficiency.

Second, using a whip as REH describes for "kinky" purposes does not in any translate into using a whip in combat. I daresay the two purposes are different ?

Finally, why dwell on goofy "overtones" ? It makes the material come out as seriously juvenile. Vincent did try to make the class "serious", but the whole effort is undermined.

I mean, the core rulebook itself has a bare breast on every page and you are going to break Vincent's balls for writting a "Temptress" class and giving them whip proficiency?

Who is breaking his balls ? Did you read my post ? I say considering his history, he is capable of so much better than some of the Temptress tripe. Did you see the bit about the Nymph ? "Run naked through the wilderness" ? Puh-lease. That is so lame, so cliche, its almost embarrasing I bought the book.

As for the poision Craft DC, that represents several things: finding the frog and catching it, collecting the poision without poisioning yourself, and then preserving the poision so that it doesn't spoil (standard poision has no shelf-life). Making real-world arguments about "all you have to do is rub the weapon on the frog" or "wearing gloves" is exactly the wrong thing to do in a d20 game because the d20 system is abstract exactly so that players and GM's are not required to worry about things like this. If my player brought up the gloves thing I would (maybe) give him a +2 equipment bonus for the gloves. Or maybe I would simply rule that gloves are part of the equipment required to safely collect poision and so assign a -2 equipment penalty to any attmpts to collect poision without golves. Or maybe I'd just tell him to shut up and not worry about unimportant details.

Immunity to poision grants you the not-so-trivial benefit of being imune to poision. It doesn't help you find or gather poisions any better.

"I took the Craft DC to mean the check to collect it safely and without diluting the poison. If you feel it is too high, then lower it. I am not a biologist either."

It certiainly helps you find and make them without fear of being poisoned. That would have to help in some fashion.

Mad Dog

 

[MadDog]

MadDog, it's obvious that you were disappointed in your purchase (fair enough). However, your initial criticisms seem to stem solely from your opinions with little apparent knowledge or consideration of Howard's Conan material. I'm far from a Conan expert, but if you haven't picked up on the fact that Howard writes the occassional femme-fatale I'm guessing you haven't read much Conan. Temptress is about as Conan as Barbarian and Sorcerer.

I read all the REH Conan stories, and yes, I realize the whip shows up a couple of times. See my response to Argo in regards to this.

While the Temptress as a class could be considered canonical, the effort is undermined by the inclusion of the whip (cliche, overdone) and such bits as the Nymph. The Femme Fatale, the Black Widow are all "reasonable" aspects that one could include witout having to endure the inevitable "rolling eyes" effect that one gets now when discusion such aspects as the whip or Nymph.

Despite your condescending tone, the author attempted to explain the Conan-canon precedent for the whip proficiency which has so offended your sensibilities. Vincent also takes the time to explain the source of inspiration for one of the multi-class combos and how he arrived at the DC in question. Why you then felt the need to become even more insulting is beyond me.

The Nymph is trash. Pure and simple. Vincent can do much better. It has no inspiration anywhere near anything REH. It relies on juvenile descriptions of something that makes no sense whatsover. Who is going to frolic naked through the woods in the Hyborian age, "enjoying everything natural, even themselves" ?

As for the DC in question, a 5 minute search would of pointed out the relative ease in getting the poison from the source. I questioned the DC, I didnt criticize Vincent over it.

And for the "wouldn't recognize the the obvious if it bit you in the ass" award, I'm guessing the character (Thaldris?) wasn't statted out as a Temptress because prior to Hyboria's Fallen no such class existed and Vincent worked with the classes that were available.

No shit ? Huh, who would of ever guess that ? Maybe just maybe, they should of included Thalis in the book and re-statted her, huh ?

The whip is cliche and makes no sense. The Nymph part is worse. THe rest of the book is fine. The readers should make thier own choice in if they want to buy it.

Mad Dog

 

[Azgulor]

Please let "good critics only" for dictatures and let the customers express themselves.

It is very funny there we can't make any bad critic of game books. That's the same idea as "vote for me of you die" (or go to hell).
This is probably their conception of democracy applied to every level.

So if I have to go to hell because I make some critics, be sure many will first show me and paved the way. :twisted:

SPQR.

Obviously, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I don't think argo or I disputed that. Once I have the book I might agree with MadDog.

I won't speak for argo but I was taking issue with how MadDog chose to express his dissatisfaction. To me, it read as all emotion and too little considered criticism. The fact that it was needlessly condescending to an author that actively supports the fan base on these boards just made it worse.

Yeah, MadDog is entitled to his opinion that Hyboria's Fallen was a disappointment to him. I'm equally entitled to my opinion that he expressed his disappointment poorly and could have handled things much differently.

Azgulor

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Is that not the point for Raven to say a word or two...?
:lol:

Thought you lot were getting tired of it, and besides people are making the points I would. My points are well known and now are getting repeated by others who don't have the stigma on here I do.

I have already promised Vincent not to review it until I see it for myself and I keep my vows.

As for 'enchanting', 'glamour' yes it is a type of magic that is why i renamed the Hypnotism school onto Enchantments and Illusions Sphere of Power for Raven's Rules of Sorcery. Seduction is a matter of skill. Yes a Temptress Dabbler or Scholar/Temptress could significantly boost her skill to seduce others by manipulating a person's mind but the two IMHO would be different things. I created the basic spell for the school called charm which gives a person +4 to Bluff, Diplomacy and Gather Information to those vulnerable to the spell. My guess is a Temptress would find this and things like hypnotic suggestions and dominate [no pun intended] useful. But that's not something I'd find useful for my game- a standard Noble/Scholar or Thief/Scholar with the right skills could fill the same function in a plot. If the plot actually needed someone to fill this role.

My dislike of the idea of a Temptress, 'erotic fiction' and such is not due to a hatred of sexuality or men in general but reflected in my current .sig. To use sex as a weapon, as a tool of manipulation isn't an act of Love and cheapens the concept itself.

Why wasnt the Bandit (official class from S&P) included in the place of the Temptress ?

Didn't I say this like over four moths ago?

 

[Teutonic]

Wasn`t there a bandit in the Shadizar box?