Hyborias Fallen - Initial Impressions

@MadDog> As I said, in the story Atali doesn't teleport herself, she calls on Ymir. Ymir teleported her, if she teleports herself in the name of her father would be a perfect example of sorcery. There is absolutely no rule for a god teleporting anyone, so does that mean that it cannot be done? Giving Atali teleportation is really an error by the way it's portrail in the story, which would lead one to believe that SoS is in error. If it's in error, then it's not canon, and therefore not correct. READ the story, not the graphic novel.

Since Atali's teleportation isn't an innate ability(by definition of the story), it would either a power by a god or sorcery, of which there is no rule fore in the game. Just because they have put teleportation as a scholar spell yet, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I seem to recall that new spells somehow appear in new books with some frequency, so I wouldn't rule it out completely that there won't appear such a spell.

As I said, portraying her as the Ymir's daughter is the best way to portray her, just not the only way. My point is that scholars in the novels are strange, prone to trickery, and have abnormal behavior. Being a temptress/scholar can make her more than mortal through the immortality style...

You asked me to show you where in the RPG you can find her ability, my answer to you is this, SoS is somewhat inaccurate based on the novel, and there is no deific ability listed elswhere. Since the line isn't finished, it really doesn't matter as the ability could appear at a later time.

As to how many characters have I run into like that pose you have a problem with, if you exclude the background it's not that uncommon to have a seductress or slave in the nude feed one fruit...
 
@MadDog> As I said, in the story Atali doesn't teleport herself, she calls on Ymir. Ymir teleported her, if she teleports herself in the name of her father would be a perfect example of sorcery. There is absolutely no rule for a god teleporting anyone, so does that mean that it cannot be done?

...or maybe she was just cying out in frustration ? Atali, listed in SoS, has the ability (which also explains it might not be her, but its in her stats).

Second, the gods in REH world are cold and impersonal.

Pocket Handbook, page 343: "In the Conan stories it is left unclear as to whether the gods exist or not."

Giving Atali teleportation is really an error by the way it's portrail in the story, which would lead one to believe that SoS is in error. If it's in error, then it's not canon, and therefore not correct. READ the story, not the graphic novel.

I read the story, thank you very much. If you want to argue the stats given to her are wrong , thats fine, I am not necessarily arguing with you, but right now, the evidence, of which the SoS stats are part, support my contention.

Since Atali's teleportation isn't an innate ability(by definition of the story),

Now you are assuming. You claimed earlier that she might of lied about implying she was Atali. By that logic I can claim she was lying about implying Ymir teleported her as opposed to being an innate ability.

it would either a power by a god or sorcery, of which there is no rule fore in the game. Just because they have put teleportation as a scholar spell yet, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I seem to recall that new spells somehow appear in new books with some frequency, so I wouldn't rule it out completely that there won't appear such a spell.

We dont even know if the gods exist or not. Maybe Vincents upcoming religion book will shd light on this, but with what we have in print now, there is no proof Ymir even exists. We do know Atali exists.

As I said, portraying her as the Ymir's daughter is the best way to portray her, just not the only way.

Are we arguing ? I think we agreed to this point a post or two ago ?

My point is that scholars in the novels are strange, prone to trickery, and have abnormal behavior. Being a temptress/scholar can make her more than mortal through the immortality style...

Sure if she was a vampire, or used the dance of Atali spell (which I just remembered but is still unlikely considering the duration). So if she isnt Atali, she is a vampire/borderer/temptress/scholar.

You asked me to show you where in the RPG you can find her ability, my answer to you is this, SoS is somewhat inaccurate based on the novel, and there is no deific ability listed elswhere. Since the line isn't finished, it really doesn't matter as the ability could appear at a later time.

We can only use what we have. If something comes along later that changes things, so be it. I have to agree that I think there are parts in SoS that are inconsistent (the frost giants in SoS are far too powerful for King Conan to defeat, much less a 3rd level Conan).

Mad Dog
 
I dont have the book myself, but does the class say anything about being for women only?

No, its not women-only. The vast majority will be, but in one case, Southern BLack Kingdom, men have Temptres (Tempter) as favored class.

Mad Dog
 
I can´t see why people are against Whip as a weapon! As any of you even tried to use it? Is is not to be used as a Primary weapon... but the fact that it can be used to make trips and disarms...
And tell a thief/temptress with improved trip, that whips are not weapons when he trips you and sneaks you with the main weapon in all his attacks of the full round action.
I see Conan classes, not as a road to be taken, but as possible multiclass combinations... so give the temptress a chance... it will give the game something it needed... a way women (caracters) can play in the civilised world with much more freedom than they had before...
I personally haven´t seen the class (haven´t got the book yet)
But from what i read people are shocked that the book focused in the "woman as object theme"... have your read REH? Thats the society of the time.
I hope the temptress to be one of the best classes, kind of like the noble class...
 
As promised here’s my review on Vincent D’s latest offering for the Conan system.

The Temptress: I was prepared to hate the Temptress on general principles: After all the passive-aggressive stereotype has never thrilled me. I might dislike the patriarchy but I’m much more direct about it. [Should the collapse of the current civilization occur within my lifetime be assured I had at least some small part in it. 8)] But after a while the character concept seduced me into liking her. Here’s a counter to all the high-brawn, low Will mountains of sociopathic muscle wandering about the Hyborian landscape. She’s not concubine, submissive, prostitute or succubi. She’s a woman who knows where to hit a man at his weakest points. After all even the most savage beast of the human male [e.g. Conan] can be disarmed and easily snared by the charms of a intelligent woman [e.g Belit]. So I’m okay with it- though I think the Whip proficiency is a little too much…..Thalis’s example nonwithstanding....8)

Speaking of Beltit and Thalis, are there any plans to re-release their statistics to give them levels of Temptress? In my Dark Horse Conan Sourcebook topic somewhere around here I re-released Iasmini from Dark Horse’s Conan comic series as a Temptress instead of a Noble. No reason Mongoose couldn’t do the same as a free download or a S&P article…..

Poisons: Good to see the additions of some more common poisons than the Lotus extracts. Low level characters and bad guys on a shoestring budget need toxic substances too…

Crime Families: I agree with Vincent that the introduction of the typical fantasy ‘thieves’s guild’ into the Hyborian world would be out of place. The introduction of this very RL evil into the Hyborian world fits though. One can envision a campaign involving a Zamorian or Nemedian crime family being a dangerous enemy- or even more dangerous ally.

Roles of the Fallen: I agree with Vincent’s character concepts for the most part . [Although I think the inclusion of the Farmer’s Daughter as a Temptress role a little silly] Since it is my habit to meddle with things here’s a few of my own.

Pirates

Exiled Nobility: Fiction is filled with nobles wrongfully robbed of their birthright through treachery or invasion and who fled to the high seas. There they take the road of the gentleman pirate, waylaying the ships of his enemies and their allies while building his fortune and waiting for his chance to reclaim his lost fortunes- or to achieve greater fortunes than he had before.

Such characters would obviously require ranks in Noble or the Noble Blood Feat from Scrolls of Skelos obviously. Since his enemies may be seeking him out, the exiled noble often uses an Alias and has ranks in Bluff and Disguise- if not a mask as well. 8) An exiled Noble often takes Diplomacy and Sense Motive as cross class skills to better gain allies in his cause and be aware of their true motives. The Leadership Feat is necessary to gain that cadre of loyal men determined to follow and support him. An exiled noble often seeks to maintain his moral code as best he can. The Honour Among Thieves Code of Honour would be highly appropriate,

River Rat: Not all pirates dwell on the high seas. There are few actual roads in the Hyborian world and those that exist are rarely maintained. Travel of goods and people is actually easier by many riverways. Not only so they provide a method of easy movement, most villages are situated on the banks of rivers.
Of course, where’s there is a merchant’s cargo there are those willing to take it from them. River Rats are Pirates that scour the rivers, lakes and smaller inland seas looking to raid water going barges and skiff. They usually operate from small convoys of small fast boats that are easy to conceal in foliage whenever a river patrol comes by. Attacking their target from multiple sides they often overwhelm the few defenders swiftly and seize control of the vessel, Most River Rats simply loot what they can take with them in their small boats and leave as the merchant’s vessel is too large to take with them. The crew that survives the initial attack is usually spared- after all if the merchants are left alive they can be raided again and again. Knowing this some crews simply surrender a portion of their goods or pay the Rats a protection ‘fee’ to be left unmolested rather than fight.

Of all Pirates, River Rats are the most likely to have maximum ranks in Swim. Unlike their ocean going counterparts, River Rats rarely operate far from any shore and for the most part lack the marine hazards of sharks and other denizens of the deep that make this skill almost pointless. River Rats usually operate in a small geographical area they usually know every byway, rapids, waterfall, pool and hidden lakeside cove. Thus ranks in Knowledge [geography] are usually high as well. Ranks in Jump allow them to move between vessels quickly. Survival allows them to live off the land while waiting for their targets. Hide assists them in remaining unseen by boats passing by. Intimidate is good for cowing merchants and commoners into handing over their goods without a fight. Feats such as Water Snake and Sea’s Breath from Pirate Isles can be used by River Rats to allow them to lay in wait for their prey underwater- a direction most people wouldn’t expect to be attacked from.

Temptress

Concubine: A role often misinterpreted by others, a concubine is not a rich man’s whore or body slave as most people believe them to be. A concubine is raised from early childhood to be the perfect companion to the wealthy and powerful. Most Nobles and other powerful personages have arranged marriages who are selected for advantageous alliances rather than their personal desires. This rarely produces the recipe for a compatible relationship and most Nobles must seek the roles produced by a traditional spouse elsewhere. While the Eastern Kingdoms usually fulfill these desires in the basest way with seraglios of dancing girls and cowed servants the kingdoms of the East have developed a more elegant solution- the concubine.

A concubine is role that a woman takes for life. At a very young age, a family of low rank who produces a daughter of great beauty and intelligence may apply her for entrance into schools dedicated to the training of concubines. Though this means the family will likely never see their daughter again, such a profession will likely produce a better life than they could ever provide for her. The standards if these schools is very high- very few of those presented are selected and many quit or fail their training before they are fully trained. Such washouts often become wives of well to do merchants, higher quality prostitutes or actresses- such is the quality of training these schools provide.

Training is strict and intense. From the first day of it a potential concubine rises early and works long hours in the studios and training halls of their school. They are tutored in the traditional dance, poetry, philosophy, songs and playing of musical instruments native to their lands. In later years they are taught the amorous arts as well from soothing massage to various forms of sexual activities so that might be a pleasing lover. They are often taught the culinary arts as well and to be connoisseurs of wines and exotic foods. Above all they are taught the proper method of behavior- a strict code that must be adhered to by a concubine lest she bring shame upon herself and her future lord.

Upon completing her training the concubine is often presented to her lord in an elaborate ceremony. Though their lord has likely secretly observed their future concubine many times, this is often the first time she has met him. This ceremony is usually the first test of the concubine’s skill. If she can maintain a perfect throughout the ceremony and react in the appropriate and socially expected way to meeting her new lord she has begun her new life. If she cannot the lord refuses her, her school’s reputation suffers and she is cast out of the house in shame. In rare cases, she is killed outright.

Her life then revolves around her lord. She is his property- not truly a common slave but a cherished possession. He is her sole purpose in life and it is expected that she immediately fulfill any need he might desire. She is provide his meals, entertain him, manage his social calendar, command his servants, accompany him on social errands and public performances and warm his bedside. In public, she often wears a variation of a traditional costume and acts in a properly submissive manner. At now time is she to eclipse the power or position of her lord’s wife though. Such relationships between a concubine and a wife can be difficult but in some cases a measure of friendship can be attained between them.

Concubines have maximum ranks in multiple Perform skills- often in Dance, Story Telling, Song, specific Musical Instruments, Ritual [for use in civil and religious ceremonies rather than sorcerous ones] and Amorous. They often have similar level of Craft [cooking] and Profession [chef]. Their training in etiquette and proper behavior is reflected in maximum ranks in Diplomacy, Knowledge [nobility] and Perform [Virginity]. Most have high ranks in Bluff as well to help cover any mistakes they might make in their behavior. A high level of Disguise reflects their familiarity with the use of costume and cosmetics to accentuate their appearance. It is also not uncommon for a concubine to have a few ranks in Heal to represent their knowledge of anatomy for massage and other physical acts of intimacy. Feats such as Performer, Persuasive, Seductive, Submissive Demeanor and True Submissive are common for concubines. Most concubines possess a Civilized Code of Honor representing their devotion to the traditions they are a part of.

A few wise lords take advantage of the oft overlooked presence of concubines in social situations also train their concubines in the arts of espionage. In the midst of revels powerful men and women often speak in an unguarded manner with each other and rarely pay attention to the presence of what they consider a lord’s vapid ornament. In some cases a concubine’s favors can be bestowed as a gift by her lord and she can thus gain admittance to her target's quarters and most intimate thoughts. These agents have high ranks in Gather Information, Hide, Listen, Move Silently Sense Motive and Sleight of Hand. Most of these agents have the Precise Recollection Feat to better retain any information they possess. The Alertness, Clarity, Eavesdrop and Gossip Feats are common for agents as well. Phedre of the Kushiel’s Dart trilogy is an example of such an agent.

In some cases independent concubines exist. These women are not owned by a person or royal house, but negotiate the terms, conditions and length of their service with potential clients. A far cry from prostitutes, these women are usually given legal or religious protection and form guilds for their mutual protection. Phedre and Inara from Firefly/Serenity are examples of independent concubines.

Entertainer: Not all the roles of a Temptresses are confined to bedplay and the act of seduction need not always be sexual. The performance of a entertainer is designed to seduce her audience on a nightly basis. Not a mere dancing girl, an entertainer is a woman devoted to her art- be it acting, dance, music, poetry or song. As either a solo act or part of a troupe, a member of a community or a traveling artist an entertainer is focused on a single goal- the next performance. Practice, the securing of a venue and the promised pay, the tuning of instruments, practice, learning new routines, practice and of course more practice are the elements of her life. Though it is often a financially unrewarding precarious existence, the entertainer would rarely have it any other way. For all the hours of pain, the moments in the spotlight and the applause of the audience are worth it.

Entertainers obviously have maximum ranks in the appropriate Perform and Profession skills. The entertainer usually uses her Seductive Savant ability for the Perform skill as well. The various Craft skills needed to maintain her equipment are also essential. It’s a poor musician who can’t tune her own lute. Actresses have maximum ranks of Bluff and Disguise as well. The artistic circles of the world can be a hot bed of gossip jealousy. Ranks in Gather Information and Sense Motive can help an entertainer survive these environments. Travelling entertainers have high ranks in Knowledge [geography] to represent knowledge gained in their travels while those that are part of a community have gained ranks in Knowledge [local] instead. The greatest prize and highest goal of an artist is often a Noble patron. Ranks in Diplomacy and Knowledge [nobility] would not go amiss. Outrageous Flattery of potential patrons is certainly very common.
Admirers usually take the form of said patrons and other fans and the income they generate usually come in the form of expensive gifts than coin. Entertainers often Inspire fellow entertainers to better Performances in their presence.

Feats common to entertainers are Performer [obviously], Persuasive, Seductive. Those at the head of a troupe have the Leadership and Reputation Transfer Feats. A few prima donnas possess the Dominant Demeanor Feats as well.

Thieves

Security Expert: A security expert is a thief one hires to break into one’s stronghold to test it’s defenses. Such experts are masters of evading guards, gaining access to secure buildings and defeating intricate traps and locks. A security expert is charged to defeat their client’s defenses and without being caught either take away or leave behind an item to prove that they have succeeded in doing so. Most experts succeed in doing so, much to the embarrassment of those charged to guard their master’s lives and fortunes. These experts usually give recommendations to their clients on how prevent such a break in from happening again. Some security experts even design locks and traps themselves and install them for a client for a fee.

Security experts have high ranks in all the skills that could be used in their ‘runs’: Balance, Climb, Disable Device, Disguise, Hide, Jump, Listen Move Silently, Open Locks, Search, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Tumble and Use Rope. Feats such as Acrobatic, Alertness, Athletic, Deft Hands and Stealthy are useful to enhance these skills. Since a security expert is charged not to harm their client’s guards the Sneak Subdual Feat is a good choice as well. The earning of a high Reputation is essential to gain good clients and to able to charge high fees for one’s service.

Thief-catcher: Who better to catch a thief than a thief? Thief-catchers are professionals who can work for a noble family or guild or are freelancers hired by those willing to pay their prices. A thief-catcher works to identify the thief or thieves responsible for a heist, find their location and to recover the items stolen by their client. Thief-catchers rarely attempt to apprehend thieves themselves but can usually call in the watch or muscle provided by their client to do so. The best thief catchers work for the crime families of the Hyborian world to ensure no thief foolish enough to steal from them lives to brag of it.

Good thief catchers have maximum ranks in Gather Information, Knowledge [local], Listen, Search, Sense Motive and Spot. Being able to move among the underworld without be identified is important so ranks in Bluff and Disguise are good to have. The ability to Intimidate other to get the information they seek is useful as well. Profession [Fence] and [Thief] represent the thief-catcher’s familiarity with the methods thieves use to operate and sell their ill gotten goods. Those who choose to try and match the thief’s prowess among the rooftops and give chase must have the ranks in Balance, Climb, Jump and Tumble to do so. Feats such as Alertness, Clarity, Gossip, Investigator and Persuasive are common for thief catchers. The Iron Will and Resist Seduction Feats are also good for helping a thief-catcher resist supernatural or the seductive charms of their prey. The Bounty Hunter [Borderer/Thief] makes a perfect thief-catcher. An example of a Hyborian supernaturally enhanced thief-catcher is the Hounds of Marduk in the volume three of the now running Dark Horse Conan comic series.

The Mutliclass options: Of these the Nymph seems to create the most consumer resistance around here. While it may not be Hyborian, Vincent did what Howard himself did- he drew her from myth and history. And he got it right. Nymphs were the attendants of the Goddess Diana who province was that of Wyld places of the Earth. Diana was the Goddess of Huntresses whose arrows were said to able to strike anywhere on Earth unerringly and slay their target swiftly and gently. She also was a Virgin Goddess- one who chose not to have a permanent mate but chose lovers as She desired- usually preferring lesser spirits or mortal lovers of great potential than fellow divine beings. She was a queen of beats able to call, command and even transform any beast she desired- including man. And She was the guardian of the sacred places and rites of the Wyld. Men who trespassed in Her domain did so at their own risk. One mortal hunter happened upon Her bathing and in Her anger She transformed him into a stag and set his own hounds upon him. On the other hand a respectful worshipper or honest man could call on Her to protect him in the wild.

As Her consorts and attendants Nymphs would likely share the same traits and possess one of the Archery Fighting Styles, possess the Dabbler Feat for the Nature school of sorcery and react to intruders in their domains depending on the how respectful said travelers were to the Wlyd places about them. And oh yes Diana and Her Nymphs usually did go skyclad i.e naked.

So nine of ten stars- that’s my humble opinion anyway……8)
 
Raven Blackwell said:
So nine of ten stars- that’s my humble opinion anyway……8)

Thank you! Excellent additions, I might add.

Raven Blackwell said:
Speaking of Belit and Thalis, are there any plans to re-release their statistics to give them levels of Temptress? In my Dark Horse Conan Sourcebook topic somewhere around here I re-released Iasmini from Dark Horse’s Conan comic series as a Temptress instead of a Noble. No reason Mongoose couldn’t do the same as a free download or a S&P article…..

Mongoose has their revised stats (with temptress levels) available to them, so I guess that is up to them.
 
In my current game we have replaced the multiclass Temptress/Borderer description with 'Gypsy' (not using the term Rom as it doesn't fit with Conan, not because I am predudiced) : A Person who lives on the edges of civilisation moving with a family/extended family group. The gypsy also gets a 'dabbler' feat or can multiclass as a sorcerer with Prestidigitation and later Curses This works a lot better than the 'nymph'

Whips are ok since they are commonly available for non-combat uses and such characters should be looking for a makeshift weapon rather than having a war-sword.

This could easily be developed to replace or supplement the 'nymph' and is a more useful class for the purposes of adventuring....

I really need to put a picture on my profile, I'm working over the weekend so mayhaps I will and mayhaps I won't
 
You dont need a proficiecny to pick it up and use it casually.

I just wanted to comment that someone who just grabs a whip...a real whip, not some S+M plaything, and starts whacking it around will end up scarred and possibly blinded.

I know...as I was one of those stupid teenagers who thought it was a good idea and now have two matching scars on my shoulder where my playing around got me bit.

A whip, a combat-ready bullwhip, is no toy. The kind of whip you use in S+M is not the same kind spoken about here.

That is all...back to your regular scheduled forum-going...

:)

Bry
 
Mongoose Steele said:
You dont need a proficiecny to pick it up and use it casually.

I just wanted to comment that someone who just grabs a whip...a real whip, not some S+M plaything, and starts whacking it around will end up scarred and possibly blinded.

I know...as I was one of those stupid teenagers who thought it was a good idea and now have two matching scars on my shoulder where my playing around got me bit.

A whip, a combat-ready bullwhip, is no toy. The kind of whip you use in S+M is not the same kind spoken about here.

That is all...back to your regular scheduled forum-going...

:)

Bry

Absolutely right, Bry! I have a bullwhip for my Mexican Bandit re-enactment group (OK, it's sub group of my Napoleonic cavalry group but it still counts!) and I've caused damage to just about everything except what i have been aiming at. they are also somewhat lethal when you are drunk... :oops: :shock:
 
Mongoose Steele said:
I just wanted to comment that someone who just grabs a whip...a real whip, not some S+M plaything, and starts whacking it around will end up scarred and possibly blinded.

Which is why I wonder while all Temptresses would have skill in using a whip. Thalis's example isn't the norm I think- she had special training [if you want to call it that] from the Stygian Temples of Dekerta where she was taught some rather deviant actitives. Not all Temptresses would gain such training. Thus I can see Thalis taking the Exotic Weapon Feat at an early level as opposed to having it granted to her as a class ability.

Just MHO
 
Not really... don´t think those existed in conan times (i can be wrong, you never know what those scholars create...)

About Whips... it seems there is no logical reason for the temptress having that exotic weapon proficiency, but then again it´s kind of a really cool weapon (thats me remenbering good old Indiana jones), and usefull to torture, disarm, trip... etc... it´s just more of a roleplay/Offhand weapon than really a main weapon... and i find that spending a Feat for that makes the whip really rare to use and unnatractive for most people, so i liked temptress having that exoctic weapon.

Just see that each class has it´s tipical weapon (notice that this is just the way i see it), soldier sword, noble arming sword, thief dagger, barbarian versability (anything works for this guy), nomad simitar, pirate cutlass, scholar staff, and finally temptress Whip...

Each of these tipical weapons are a part of the class spirit, so call it an instinctive knowledge of the weapon... (this is not really a logical explanation but it kind of helps)

Thats the explanation that i´m gonna give if someone asks.
 
Raven Blackwell said:
The Mutliclass options: Of these the Nymph seems to create the most consumer resistance around here.

Hmm..., maybe I'm making a big mistake, but when I read the Nymph concept, I started to laugh - not because I thought of it as ridiculous, but as a great joke!

Not every combo of two core classes makes very much sense, although in most cases the presented character concepts make a good job even in the difficult cases. But a Borderer / Temptress combo... So my first idea was that Vincent Darlage solved the problem by making a joke - and a good one IMO.

I remember a fun issue of German RPG magazine which always saw itself in opposition to AD&D and published a satiric article "Hobbit Assassin as a new character class" - most people (including me :oops: ) didn't understand the joke and made big complaints...
 
Well, Nymphs actually are from Greek Mythology. Whether Vincent knew this and used the idea or is making a joke only he can answer.

That'd explain the Whip thing too...

Although what's wrong with a halfling assassian? High Dex, the ability to slip into a place through very small and underguarded portals and willing to be paid in pastries and tea? 8)
 
The King said:
I have an idea for a great adventure.
Teaser:

"The Whip, the Nymph and the Sadist".

Warning: very graphic; adventure for 18+ only. Level: 10-15.

New prestige class: the whipper.
Pre-requisite: Str. 15+, Dex. 17+.
Restriction: no armor proficiency, excepted black leather. When he reaches 10th level, he automatically gain a black leather mask (-2 to Cha. but provide a +5 circumstance bonus to Intimitate and Bluff).
Agggh, that disturbing scene from "Pulp Fiction" is running through my mind! :shock: (Didn't that guy have a zipper on his mouth?) Agggh, someone wash my mind with mouthwash!!!
 
Back
Top