Hull advantages & disadvantages.

[allanimal]

Normally one gets 1 hull points per 2.5 tons of hull.

TL adjustments to the hull will adjust this by 10% for each advantage or disadvantage.

The reinforced hull option will increase this by 20% for each 5% of hull devoted to it.

Which of these percentages is calculated 1st? Or do they all calculate based on the initial 1 hull point per 2.5 tons of hull?

So, example #1:
200 ton ship --> 80 hull points
200 ton ship with 10 tons of hull reinforcement: 96 hull points
200 ton ship with 10 tons of hull reinforcement and 1 advantage (Increased Durability): Is this
1) 102 hull points: 80 base + 16 (20% of 80) + 8 (10% of 80)
2) 103 hull points: 80 base + 16 (20% of 80) + 9 (10% of 96) [advantage applies to base + reinforced]
3) 105 hull points: 80 base + 8 (10% of 80) + 17.6 (20% of 88) [reinforced applies to base + advantage]

I think it should be #3 - the TL advantage/disadvantage should make the reinforcement that much better. But, of course, #1 is easiest to calculate.

Example #2:
200 ton ship with early prototype hull 10% of hull devoted to reinforcement.
Early prototype has 2 disadvantages (Decreased Durability), and in addition to this, has a +100% tonnage cost.

How does that +100% tonnage cost fit into the picture? Does that mean my 200-ton hull can only cram in 100 tons of stuff?

How many hull points do we get? [using the same calculation as example 1:
1) 96 hull points: 80 base, -16 (-20% for the 2x disadvantage), +32 (+40% for the reinforcement) --> net +20%
2) 89 hull points: 80 base, +32 (40% for the reinforcement), -23 (-20% for the disadvantages) [disadvantage applies to base + reinforced] --> net +12%, rounded down
3) 76 hull points: 80 base, -16 (-20% for the 2x disadvantage), +25 (+40% for the reinforcement) [reinforced applies to base + disadvantage] --> net +95%, rounded down

Again, #1 is the easiest, but #3 has a sort of charm it - the TL adjustments will apply to both the base hull figure and the reinforcement figure.

The biggie though is the 100% tonnage penalty of the early prototype.
How does that work???

 

[Nerhesi]

Hull advantages/disadvantages were recently just added - lots of kinks to work out as you may be seeing in other posts.

As for combination with reinforced hull, I would think the simplest way is to calculate on the "base hull value" - but that is just an opinion Clarity Required!

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Another unfounded opinion:
You either add the modifiers: 80*( 1 - 20% + 40% - 20% ) = 80
or multiply everything: 80 * 80% * 140% * 80% = 71[.68]

Until the rules specify otherwise:
A Hull takes 0 dTons. 2*( 100% + 100% ) = 0*2 = 0

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Correction:
You either add the modifiers: 80*( 100% - 20% + 40% ) = 96
or multiply everything: 80 * 80% * 140% = 89[.6]

I think most normal people would assume the first method.
(Mathematicians would assume the second.)

 

[Chas]

I saw this and have ignored TL advantage till it's properly defined just how to apply it and the rules about TL of hulls and what you can and cannot put into an older TL hull. A bunch of open questions there :lol:

I've done a close hull advantage first, then run hull reinforcement on this as perhaps the logical way to go about it.

Edit: what I think would be a workable solution will be to have the TL advantages apply to hull reinforcement, making that less weight, say put in the base TL as 12 and then +/- .5% ship tonnage for 2 tech levels

 

[MongooseMatt]

Moving this out of Advanced/Primitive and into a core option of Ship Design (Reinforced and Light Hulls).

 

[GhengisRexx]

The reinforced Hull option in the Ship Design section does not add weight, and has a different cost as the listing in the Spacecraft options....

 

[MongooseMatt]

Good catch, option getting removed from Options chapter.

 

[Randalthor66]

Has this question been answered? I don't see how to do this math, i.e., what is the order of operations? Are they all just done individually then added? Does one type of modification affect another? If so, which ones?

A full breakdown of how one of the ships in the book was made would have been super helpful. (Specifically, one that is at least a couple thousand tons and with some of the options used.)

 

[Arkathan]

Considering it doesn't appear in HG2022, I'd say that book resolved the issue.

 

[Vormaerin]

Matt's 2016 post about removing the erroneous duplication in the Options chapter does seem to have been acted on sometime in the last 8 years

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Has this question been answered? I don't see how to do this math, i.e., what is the order of operations? Are they all just done individually then added? Does one type of modification affect another? If so, which ones?

Yes, just multiply the modifiers:
https://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/threads/ship-design-am-i-doing-it-right.120615/post-922619

Look at the hull of the Heavy Fighter in HighGuard 2017 (p102), it is confirmed as correct.

50 Dt × MCr 0.5 × 1.2 [streamlined] × 1.5 [reinforced] = MCr 4.5
50 Dt / 2.5 × 1.1 [reinforced] = 22 Hull

 

[tytalan]

Normally one gets 1 hull points per 2.5 tons of hull.

TL adjustments to the hull will adjust this by 10% for each advantage or disadvantage.

The reinforced hull option will increase this by 20% for each 5% of hull devoted to it.

Which of these percentages is calculated 1st? Or do they all calculate based on the initial 1 hull point per 2.5 tons of hull?

So, example #1:
200 ton ship --> 80 hull points
200 ton ship with 10 tons of hull reinforcement: 96 hull points
200 ton ship with 10 tons of hull reinforcement and 1 advantage (Increased Durability): Is this
1) 102 hull points: 80 base + 16 (20% of 80) + 8 (10% of 80)
2) 103 hull points: 80 base + 16 (20% of 80) + 9 (10% of 96) [advantage applies to base + reinforced]
3) 105 hull points: 80 base + 8 (10% of 80) + 17.6 (20% of 88) [reinforced applies to base + advantage]

I think it should be #3 - the TL advantage/disadvantage should make the reinforcement that much better. But, of course, #1 is easiest to calculate.

Example #2:
200 ton ship with early prototype hull 10% of hull devoted to reinforcement.
Early prototype has 2 disadvantages (Decreased Durability), and in addition to this, has a +100% tonnage cost.

How does that +100% tonnage cost fit into the picture? Does that mean my 200-ton hull can only cram in 100 tons of stuff?

How many hull points do we get? [using the same calculation as example 1:
1) 96 hull points: 80 base, -16 (-20% for the 2x disadvantage), +32 (+40% for the reinforcement) --> net +20%
2) 89 hull points: 80 base, +32 (40% for the reinforcement), -23 (-20% for the disadvantages) [disadvantage applies to base + reinforced] --> net +12%, rounded down
3) 76 hull points: 80 base, -16 (-20% for the 2x disadvantage), +25 (+40% for the reinforcement) [reinforced applies to base + disadvantage] --> net +95%, rounded down

Again, #1 is the easiest, but #3 has a sort of charm it - the TL adjustments will apply to both the base hull figure and the reinforcement figure.

The biggie though is the 100% tonnage penalty of the early prototype.
How does that work???

The problem with this is we only have advantages/disadvantages for weapons, power plants, M-drive and J-drive at least that all we have in highguard so as it stands now we have no reason to consider this a option. So do you have a source for this if so what is it?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The problem with this is we only have advantages/disadvantages for weapons, power plants, M-drive and J-drive at least that all we have in highguard so as it stands now we have no reason to consider this a option. So do you have a source for this if so what is it?

HG2017 early beta I believe, a lot was changed before release. The date of the post is a hint.

HG dec 2015 beta:

Hull Advantages​

Increased Durability: This hull is constructed using advanced naval architectural procedures and the most advanced materials, making it much stronger. The ship gains an additional +10% Hull points.

Hull Disadvantages​

Decreased Durability: This hull uses lower-grade materials and is not as spaceworthy as other designs. The ship loses 10% of its Hull points.

I vaguely recall you were in the beta program?

 

[tytalan]

HG2017 early beta I believe, a lot was changed before release. The date of the post is a hint.

HG dec 2015 beta:


I vaguely recall you were in the beta program?

It got rewritten in the final version and now has nothing to do with TL
“
Reinforced Hull: By increasing the cost of a hull by +50%, a ship can have its Hull points increased by +10%.
Light Hull: By decreasing the cost of a hull by -25%, a ship can have its Hull points decreased by -10%.”

 

[AnotherDilbert]

It got rewritten in the final version and now has nothing to do with TL
“
Reinforced Hull: By increasing the cost of a hull by +50%, a ship can have its Hull points increased by +10%.
Light Hull: By decreasing the cost of a hull by -25%, a ship can have its Hull points decreased by -10%.”

Of course, but the OP was from the beta program, as can be seen by the date of the OP, so referred to the then current beta rules.