Howard, Tolkien and Lovecraft Comparative Studies

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GregLynch said:
Raven Blackwell said:
Also Tolkien was very much a Creationist- in the Simillarion[sp?] the birth of Middle Earth and Malar's fall is played out in full Gensis fashion- while the more scientificlly inclined REH and HPL had the idea of life being merely the result of the scientific process of evolution- or degeneration in some cases.

Pardon me if I'm taking you too literally here...

You are. I meant that as a Catholic he would be expected to believe in Creationism. Whether he did believe in the literal interpretation of Genesis or not is impossible to know now unless someone can come up with some of his letters saying so. It is fairly obvious he drew on the Genesis myth to create the first chapter of Silmarillion though.

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In terms of this second goal, of creating a mythology, it seems 'creationism' is really the only way to go. After all, who wants to read myth that starts out with 'In the beginning, there were these amino acids...'

Actually Howard does something similiar to this in The Devil in Iron.

(It's 'Silmarillion', btw) :)

Sorry- my spelling in imaginary languages can be less that ideal. I don't even know how to spell or pronounce 'Elebreth' . Shame on me. 8)
 
The King said:
Does anyone has ever considered that the wartcher (or is it a lurker?) that is in the lac in front of the (Western) gate of Moria is a kind of tribute to Lovecraft?

Only in an accidental way. Tolkien wasn't the sort to read American pulp fiction, so I find it unlikely he'd ever had read Lovecraft. I said unlikely- it is in the realms of the possible that he could have, but he never referred to HPL or REH that I know of.

And it is true- all three were fatalist in that the end of magic [for Tolkien] or the world entire [for REH and HPL] was always on their minds.....
 
Tolkien was asked about REH once and Tolkien said he had read some. Said Howard was a good author but not entirely to his tastes due to the violence. (I am having a hard time finding the actual quote, though)
 
So therefore it is possible Tolkien could have read HPL too. The Watcher in the Water as it is often called could be some oblique reference to Cthulhu or Dagon. We'll likely never know.

If Tolkien did read REH this peaks my curosity. In the unfinished fragment Drums Over Tumbulku[sp?] Almaric is pursued by spectral skeletal riders on demonic black horses who carry dread and fear about them. In The Pheonix on the Sword the evil master sorcerer Thoth Amon was rendered powerless by losing a gold ring. Now I know authors influence each other so here's an odd thought- do some of the roots of The Lord of the Rings extend into early 20th century American dark fanatsy/horror as well as Anglo Saxon myth? 8)
 
We should never underestimate the power of these pulp authors who never were recognized in their time (for the most part). It is a fact that sci-fi and fantasy is quite a modern genre beginning at the end of the 19th century and really appreciated by the mass market in the second half of the 20th century with an increasing interest.
 
The King said:
We should never underestimate the power of these pulp authors who never were recognized in their time (for the most part). It is a fact that sci-fi and fantasy is quite a modern genre beginning at the end of the 19th century and really appreciated by the mass market in the second half of the same century with an increasing interest.

Pulp fiction is literature 'dirty secret' as it were then? That prolific bastard child no one wants to claim yet whose works as so good that they are appropiated by others? Sounds about right.
 
Raven Blackwell said:
Howard, Lovecraft and Charles Ashton Smith together created the Cthulhu Mythos by sharing elements of each other stories. Thus Howard's Hyborian Age is part of the Mythos timeline- which is indicated in the timeline within core rule book for Call of Cthulhu as happening 7000 prior to 'present day'. So the prehistory of Howard's stories is the same one given by Lovecraft - the ancient Old Ones and their servitors arriving in prehistory, setting up their version of civilization and then falling asleep during the early days of man. There is a topic devoted to this overlap called 'Conan and Cthulhu' here although since no one's been active on it for a while it's fallen to page 2 or 3. I should post a new Lovecraft monster for Conan stats again to bring it back to the top of the list.

In any case even if you want to disregard that overlap, the earlier civilizations of Atlantis, Lemuria and Archeron mentioned directly in Howard's work also fit the bill for earlier more advanced sorcerous civilizations prior to the Hyborian Age- although without directly mentioned Old One infulence.

Having a history - that is corollary at best - is far from having societies that worship the Old Ones. It does work to incorporate the mythos into the Conan RPG but Howard's contribution to the Mythos in the Conan stories is minimal and may be the reason Lovecraft called Howard's Conan stories the 'dregs' of Howard's total literary output. But because it is convenient is no reason to imply a connection in the Conan stories that is not really there.

I also read that Tolkien had read Howard and wasn't impressed. I see if I can find the quote.
 
Strom said:
Having a history - that is corollary at best - is far from having societies that worship the Old Ones. It does work to incorporate the mythos into the Conan RPG but Howard's contribution to the Mythos in the Conan stories is minimal and may be the reason Lovecraft called Howard's Conan stories the 'dregs' of Howard's total literary output. But because it is convenient is no reason to imply a connection in the Conan stories that is not really there.

In truth there is only one directly named connection that directly relates the two. In The Phoenix on the Sword Conan sees statues of the Old Ones in his dream journey to the buried tomb of....whatever that sage's name was. That's something I can't remember this late at night. There are shared names between the Mythos work and Conan like Hyperborea and Mu which also provide indirect evidence. But it is more dependant if you want to use the Mythos work or not. The history is close enough that if you want to you can. This is fantasy were talking about here.

Also my point was that Howard, Lovecraft and Tolkien's work had their hero's civilization created in the shadow of greater and more magically powerful prior civilizations. It need not be the Old One's cultures- the Serpent people's kingdom, Atlantis, Lemuria, Hyperboria, Mu and Archeron all fit that criteria for Howard's work.
 
I think that all of these three authors were writing at a particular moment in history when there was a widespread crisis of confidence in the values upon which Western civilisation was founded.

It was hard to maintain any faith in the continuity and value of human civilisation in an era saw the horrors of World War I...followed by the global influenza pandemic of the early 1920s, the Great Depression, the rise of Stalinist Russia and the first stirrings of Fascism in Germany.

It is hard to overstate the impact that World War I had on the imaginations of people living in the 1920s and 1930s. The Great War showed that the values of Western civilisation were extremely fragile -- there was a renewed sense that barbarism lurked just beneath the surface, ready to erupt at any time. The stuffy self-satisfaction of the late Victorian era was well and truly dead.

However, there were also more subtle influences on all three writers. This was also an era when there were upheavals in the artistic and intellectual worlds. It was the era when representation of reality in the visual arts was starting to be challenged by the rise of abstraction. This was the age of the Surrealist movement and the Dada movement.

It was also an era when the structure of the novel and the poem was being challenged by the rise of modernism. It was the age of James Joyce and T.S. Elliot. There was a sense that Romanticism of any kind was shameful and potentially dangerous -- there was a sense that the Romantic worldview had contributed to the nationalism that in turn led to the tragedies of Ypres and the Somme. Consider this quote from Clark AShton Smith's essay 'On Fantasy':

We have been told that literature dealing with the imaginative and fantastic is out of favour among the Intellectuals, whoever they are. Only the Real, whatever that is or may be, is admissible for treatment; and writers must confine themselves to themes well within the range of statisticians, lightning calculators, Freud and Kraft-Ebbing, the Hearst and McFadden publications, NRA, and mail-order catalogues. Chimeras are no longer the mode, the infinite has been abolished; mystery is obsolete, and sphinx and medusa are toys for children. The weird and the unearthly are outlawed, and all mundane impossibilities (which, it may be, are the commonplaces of the Pleinds) have been banished to some limbo of literalistic derision. One may write of horses and hippopotomi but not of hippogriffs; of biographers, but not of ghouls; of slum-harlots or the hetairae of Nob Hill but not of succubi. In short, all pipe-dreams, all fantasies not authorized by Freudianism, by sociology, and the five senses, are due for the critical horse-laugh, when, through ignorance, effrontery, or preference, they find a place in the subject matter of some author unlucky enough to have been born into the age of Jeffers, Hemingway, and Joyce.

It was an era when theories of Freud permeated the academic world in the same way that the theories of Derrida and Foucalt do today. Both Tolkien and Lovecraft certainly had a dislike of these trends, but each of them responded in a different way.

The importance of courage in the face of overwhelming odds is a vital theme in the works of Tolkien precisely because he felt that Western civilisation was in danger of losing its nerve. Through their actions, his characters validate the relevance of virtues such as heroism, loyalty, and hope even in the darkest of times. It is noteworthy that those characters who give in to despair (Denethor and - to a lesser extent - Theoden) both come to a nasty end.

By contrast, Lovecraft translated his concerns about the direction in which civilisation was heading into into a sense of horror.

Robert E. Howard stands somewhere between these two extremes. There is a sense of moody despair at the ultimate transience of human existence... but also a sense of triumphant pride in the power of human endurance in the face of an uncaring cosmos.

As an aside, I've always thought it was significant that Lovecraft was writing at a time when Quantum Mechanics was starting to overturn classcal Newtonian physics. Lovecraft had a deep interest in the physical sciences and was aware of contemporary debates about the nature of reality at the atomic level. From memory, I think that he even mentions the work of Heisenberg in 'Dreams in the Witch House'.

There are few better expressions of the Lovecraftian worldview than that of the physicist Erwin Schrodinger pointed out the "the universe is not only stranger than we imagine; it is staranger than we can imagine"
 
must amit till took up reading the conan books again it was lovecraft not howard I collected they and papa tolken are the giants this game was built on and so is the history behind our collective brand of geekness
 
Well said Prime_Evil. Here's a a serious scholar of literature. Hear Hear!

Prime_Evil said:
Robert E. Howard stands somewhere between these two extremes. There is a sense of moody despair at the ultimate transience of human existence... but also a sense of triumphant pride in the power of human endurance in the face of an uncaring cosmos.

Which is why I like the boy despite certain fundemantal differences we'd likely had. This is more less my philosphy towards things- though I see it as individuals against the cosmos, not the whole human race as one. Some fall, some fly. And evolution just trundles along with or without us.
 
comparing the big 3 who do you think got the future more correct lovecraft and we are ants,howard man makes his own destiny or tolkens the past was our golden time all have their points but which do you think had the most right ideas 8)
 
toothill man said:
comparing the big 3 who do you think got the future more correct lovecraft and we are ants,howard man makes his own destiny or tolkens the past was our golden time all have their points but which do you think had the most right ideas 8)

Tolkien was wrong, dead wrong. There has never been some Golden Age we should look back on with regret for losing. Life's always been hard in some ways or others, with the littlelove and beauty within it the sole counterpoint to the horror it contains.

Lovecraft was right in that in the long term, mankind like all things material isn't terriblely central or important, but his fear of what he couldn't explain was too great and reflected his weak and retiring nature than a enlightened view of the cosmos.

Howard gets a little closer with the fact that mankind, yes isn't a big thing, but if one possesses the courage, one can shape the world about them to the limit of their abilities. I disagree with the goals of his protagonists though. For the most part their goals have been materialistic and selfish rather than enlightened- to rule kingdoms or seize everything they can their hands on and keep it against all comers with the occasional bout of overindulgence to distract them from the purposelessness of their lives. No matter how much one has, it means nothing without love or beauty and life is then just a slow suicide.
 
Raven Blackwell said:
Howard gets a little closer with the fact that mankind, yes isn't a big thing, but if one possesses the courage, one can shape the world about them to the limit of their abilities. I disagree with the goals of his protagonists though. For the most part their goals have been materialistic and selfish rather than enlightened- to rule kingdoms or seize everything they can their hands on and keep it against all comers with the occasional bout of overindulgence to distract them from the purposelessness of their lives. No matter how much one has, it means nothing without love or beauty and life is then just a slow suicide.

but that gives it its edge and makes it seem far more real in the real world frodo would want too know what was in it for him before setting one hairy toe towards mordor and as for lovecraft right their not harming us unless we seek them so unless theirs alot of money the old ones havent declared :wink: let them sleep and hope the stars are not right during our lifetime is a far more a real response. :wink:
 
The Golden Age only exists in divine myth. When you can imagine this you will understand that this spiritual severance had major consequences on our physical state where our minds are limited in a Lovecraftian way. Man is frail because he innerly and emotionaly accepted his condition of becoming a mortal.
 
The King said:
The Golden Age only exists in divine myth. When you can imagine this you will understand that this spiritual severance had major consequences on our physical state where our minds are limited in a Lovecraftian way.

Hmmm....as a pagan preistess and a shaman I gotta disagree with the idea that you might have the whole picture what is and is not true of the Divine. I've never heard a spirit tell of any 'Golden Area'- they just point out the air, water and land were cleaner before this current age of humanity.

And my mind at least is not as limited as you suggest.....8)

Man is frail because he innerly and emotionaly accepted his condition of becoming a mortal.

Accept? We are mortal. It what we are meant to be. This shell of flesh is mortal and meant to die so that it might return to whence it came after a period of learning and suffering. Anything beyond that is just wishful thinking. It's the overcoming of our limitations which is miraclous.
 
toothill man said:
but that gives it its edge and makes it seem far more real in the real world frodo would want too know what was in it for him before setting one hairy toe towards mordor

Actually like Frodo I've done hard things for spiritual reward as opposed to material. I find it better coin in the long run.

Also this was what was in Frodo's interest: His race's continued survival. You'd let your extended family go under if you weren't paid for it?

and as for lovecraft right their not harming us unless we seek them so unless theirs alot of money the old ones havent declared :wink: let them sleep and hope the stars are not right during our lifetime is a far more a real response. :wink:

Well, I'm not the sort to roll over and die on command- I rather die seeking the truth than hide under my bed for fear of what might be out there. In truth most things are far less scary than you first imagine.
 
Raven Blackwell said:
The King said:
The Golden Age only exists in divine myth. When you can imagine this you will understand that this spiritual severance had major consequences on our physical state where our minds are limited in a Lovecraftian way.

Hmmm....as a pagan preistess and a shaman I gotta disagree with the idea that you might have the whole picture what is and is not true of the Divine. I've never heard a spirit tell of any 'Golden Area'- they just point out the air, water and land were cleaner before this current age of humanity.

And my mind at least is not as limited as you suggest.....8)

Man is frail because he innerly and emotionaly accepted his condition of becoming a mortal.

Accept? We are mortal. It what we are meant to be. This shell of flesh is mortal and meant to die so that it might return to whence it came after a period of learning and suffering. Anything beyond that is just wishful thinking. It's the overcoming of our limitations which is miraclous.
I just give an example: your spirit within your body is limited by space and dimension. You can't just perceive/see what is behind you because your senses are limited in that way and you don't have an all-around vision.
So we have 5 senses which are limited to our physical perception.
The other senses which are more spiritual are also limited by the physical environment: e.g. the horizon is naturally limited to sight because the planet is circular but the planet gravity represents also an obstacle.

Yes your flesh is mortal as are all physical material but your soul isn't. This means that the soul is the true master of your personality.
Did you never perceive it that way: the soul conceived a physical envelope to protect itself when it was expelled from the divine realm. This physical cocoon is imperfect because man is no god, thus it dies and is mortal. My belief is that it was immortal before the exclusion and this immortality can be found in most religions (nirvana, paradise, etc.).

That is why I believe this place is hell. Whatever solution man brings up there is always a counter-solution to it that automatically appears and this dualism is integrated almost everywhere (e.g. you breath oxygen but expels poison, you have light and darkness, good and evil, air and ground, 0 and 1 for computer language, + and - of magnetic poles, etc. ad infinitum).

For those who are interested to surrealism: why is it that man has ears on the sides whereas he usually faces (and sees) his interlocutor.
 
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