How much will Imperium interfere?

[rust]

However, in regard to Nazis and aliens, I think they would only respond positively to the arrival of a drop ship full of battle dressed Valkyries.

I seriously doubt that. Almost all of them were lower middle class bullies
with the typical mentality to defer to anyone obviously more powerful,
after the first demonstration of an energy weapon the huge majority of
them would have crawled up to kiss the new alpha creature's feet (or ten-
tacles ...).

There is almost a universe of difference between their mythos and how
they wanted so see themselves and their actual background and beha-
viour, as became obvious when they had to realize that the war was lost
and they fell over their feet in their haste to slime up to their new Allied
rulers.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Sanctions and direct retaliation by Imperium might lead to dismantling the United States government (remember the Imperium is not a democracy but an aristocracy therefore, it mind find even elements of Imperial Japan more favorable form of government) for using nuclear weapons would be a real possibility. Perhaps, even awarding parts of its terrorities to the Axis or direct Imperial rule.

As for what it would do with the rest of the powers, it would depend how quickly their could their ducks in line with the Imperial authorities. If there was an immediate cease fire after the rules of war were violated or Imperial authority broached...those powers that stood with the Imperium would have their new possessions ie real estate recognized by the Imperium.

If the 3I contacts earth before WWII (and assuming that WWII still happens . . .) then the US will know not to use nuclear weapons. May not even bother going to the expense of developing them. The Allies still win, just takes another year.

Bit trickier if the war has already started, but the covert 3I contact group will detect the first test firing of an A bomb, and probably have words with Truman before he uses it for real. The Allies still win.

3I may be an aristocratic system, but individual planets clearly have the right to any system of government, so can't see any reason for violent intervention there.

And Nazis? May be able to stay in power as an autocratic dictatorship, with Goebbels speedily re-writing Nazi thought, but would even Hitler start a war that might even risk intervention from super powerful space aliens?

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

However, in regard to Nazis and aliens, I think they would only respond positively to the arrival of a drop ship full of battle dressed Valkyries.

I seriously doubt that. Almost all of them were lower middle class bullies
with the typical mentality to defer to anyone obviously more powerful,
after the first demonstration of an energy weapon the huge majority of
them would have crawled up to kiss the new alpha creature's feet (or ten-
tacles ...).

There is almost a universe of difference between their mythos and how
they wanted so see themselves and their actual background and beha-
viour, as became obvious when they had to realize that the war was lost
and they fell over their feet in their haste to slime up to their new Allied
rulers.

Yeah, the "quality" of middle ranking Nazis was pretty poor, my comment about Valkayries was meant as bit of joke. Still think the arrival of powerful aliens blows most Nazi ideology out of the water, but sure that you are right that many individuals will change their ideas quickly. (To be honest, the whole world would have to do a lot of rapid rethinking!)

But, in regard to your last point, most of the Nazi leadership was still trying to fight the war when it had clearly already been lost (i.e. by mid 1943), the real sliming only started in the last few weeks before the surrender, and in the years following.

The Italians had the right idea, sacked Mussolini in 1943 and tried to switch sides.

Egil

 

[GamerDude]

And since the discussion here wasn't "what's canon" but rather "what does the Imperium do," I think any answer pulling from any source that sheds light on that subject is helpful. OBVIOUSLY, every GM is going to have slightly different details in their games. The GT material smartly indicates this at the back of GT: Nobles when it explains how the Imperium can be defined by its location on the Good/Evil vs. Strong/Weak axes and how the "OTU" is defined vs. how others may want to change things.

I don't overstate my point, and I believe I gave props many a time to the quality of the G:T books (which I own all in dead-tree version).

There is "what we KNOW the Imperium will do" and "What we DON'T KNOW the Imperium will do but can speculate and try to find clues elsewhere".

In this case, based on the claims that there is nothing in any of the materials recognized as "what we KNOW it will do", it falls to "we can speculate and find clues elsewhere". Any G:T books is in that latter category... CLUES found elsewhere.

Canon is the "baseline of the setting as written and intended", the baseline we then all start from. I never try to be 100% canon-complaint in my games. Actually I consider it impossible. It's like the rules. You follow them unless you have a reason to deviate, but you have something to guide you and to deviate from. If the 'official' books don't cover something then you go to what others have published.

The d20 3.x D&D and third party publishers are a good example of this. AEG alone with their d20 series "One Word Titles" like 'War', 'Magic' etc. did a great job of bringing out a spell point system well before Unearthed Arcana brought out one from WotC.

So before Unearthed Arcana came out it was "The core rules don't say anything about this, so let's figure it out and see what is out there that gives us a clue" with the book 'Magic' being the clue. After it came out, it became "Ok here's what we KNOW..."

 

[rust]

Any G:T books is in that latter category... CLUES found elsewhere.

GURPS Traveller Star Mercs was written by Martin J. Dougherty, doubt-
less one of the best Traveller authors with an excellent knowledge of the
Third Imperium setting - in fact, probably the most reliable source of in-
formations about the miltary side of the Third Imperium setting.

I do not care who paid him to write this material, or whether it was pub-
lished by GDW, SJG or the Prawda, the fact that it was written by MJD
is good enough for me to treat it as reliable - far more reliable than much
of the nonsense published in several "official" GDW supplements written
by people with much less knowledge of the Third Imperium setting.

In other words, I would not judge a book by its cover or by the name of
the company which published it, I would prefer to take a look at the author
before I decide to use the material or ignore it.

 

[GamerDude]

Any G:T books is in that latter category... CLUES found elsewhere.

GURPS Traveller Star Mercs was written by Martin J. Dougherty, doubt-
less one of the best Traveller authors with an excellent knowledge of the
Third Imperium setting

Dude, as much respect I have for MJD's work and credentials, that is separate from the publisher, the publisher's goals desired framework etc. That was material written for an acknowledge ATU not the OTU. Both SJGames/Sean Punch & Marc Miller have said it's an ATU and not official.

AND I keep saying the G:T stuff is a great source for ideas and clues etc. But I also know that it's not part of the baseline.

Ok, one last time. It's a clue and in this case a very good clue. Rust, I know you fall into that group (like a few others who are or have been on this forum at one time or another) die hard G:T fans, you kneel at the altar of worship to it, and in ways consider it more authoritative than anything else put out even the stuff done by the game's creator.

TO ADD: Having gone through and gotten an A.A.S., two B.S., and a Masters all in the computer field, having to do research and learn what that actually means (hint: going to the library and referencing a bunch of books is NOT research, it's a review of available literature), I've learned a great deal about primary sources, secondary sources, derivative sources, speculative sources etc. (as I explain it). Anything not GDW/FFF published is not a primary or even secondary source, it is a derivative source... it took what was known and did its own thing with it.

FINALLY: The G:T stuff is great as a nice little tool for clues on things not addressed by anything GDS/FFE. A Great little tool. But if you try to quote it to me as "the gospel and how it is, not to be challenged or doubted"...

Well you will be challenged, you wil be doubted, and with facts not an emotional grip on something.

 

[rust]

Rust, I know you fall into that group (like a few others who are or have been on this forum at one time or another) die hard G:T fans, you kneel at the altar of worship to it, and in ways consider it more authoritative than anything else put out even the stuff done by the game's creator.

Sorry, but this is utter nonsense. :lol:

In fact, I have never played GURPS Traveller, and it is no secret that I
also never used the Third Imperium setting as written and do not consi-
der anyone's material as in any way authoritative for my settings.

However, if I would decide to use such material, I would decide which
material to use based upon the obvious knowledge of the author, not
upon which company published it.

 

[GamerDude]

However, if I would decide to use such material, I would decide which material to use based upon the obvious knowledge of the author, not upon which company published it.

*sighs* wish people could read...

 

[DFW]

However, if I would decide to use such material, I would decide which material to use based upon the obvious knowledge of the author, not upon which company published it.

*sighs* wish people could read...

Umm, you need to head your own sig at this point....

 

[apoc527]

GamerDude, why do you keep bringing this up? It's pretty evident that nobody cares (and that was the point of the link I posted earlier too) except a handful of diehard fanatics whether a source was published by GDW/FFG or someone else.

We've all read your posts, we get what you are trying to argue. We just don't care. So when someone says "Oh, such and such GT book says this" and you respond, "yea, but it's GT so it doesn't count," that has absolutely no value and adds nothing to the actual discussion. I'm glad that you are a very experienced researcher. IRL, I'm a lawyer, and we do that for a living too. And you can pull from a great many sources, whether something is binding precedent or merely persuasive, it's all valid when trying to make a point.

And here, we're not trying to convince anyone of anything. It's always been every GM for himself when it comes to the precise details of any setting. Why you feel that GT material is "invalid" for discussion on these boards is beyond me. If YOU don't want to look at GT material and think of it as official, fine. Whether something is "official" has no relevance when we are discussing things that have no official answer.

So, instead of constantly reminding us all that GT isn't official because it's an "ATU," either contribute to the substantive discussion or just don't bother posting in the relevant thread at all.

 

[apoc527]

However, if I would decide to use such material, I would decide which material to use based upon the obvious knowledge of the author, not upon which company published it.

*sighs* wish people could read...

Umm, you need to head your own sig at this point....

+1 for DFW.

 

[apoc527]

Well you will be challenged, you wil be doubted, and with facts not an emotional grip on something.

Ok, let's clarify something here. When I started this discussion, I never set out to convert anyone to my "beliefs" about what is or isn't official. In trying to discern what it is that has been bothering me about your posts, it's this. You appear to be very, very concerned with what you believe to be "official" when discussing Traveller. That's just fine. But realize that nobody is trying to convert you. I asked a question for which I couldn't find an immediate answer. Someone mentioned the Rules of War could be found in GT: Star Mercs. Owning a copy of said book, I looked it up and found a very good answer to my question. When I post this, you immediately pipe up to say that "GT isn't official, so that's wrong."

I don't recall you being appointed GM at my table. I don't recall needing anyone's approval for an answer I found. I don't recall even asking whether something was official or not, just what people thought. We have a very good discussion going here, other than this amazingly long sidetrack argument about what it is and isn't official.

Do you think that the propensity for some Traveller fans to go on massive rants about the officialness of OTU material is good for the community? What does it do to you if I use the GT material as "canon" in my games?

So please, relax, this is a friendly forum for discussion of a game we all like, and as your own sig points out, we can agree to disagree as adults.

 

[rust]

*sighs* wish people could read...

Give us a good example and learn it. :lol:

 

[rust]

What level of Imperial representation would Earth have had? Given the Balkanization, would Earth have had multiple noble representatives? How would the Imperium choose who to support, if anyone?

Despite the risk to cause another lecture about the validity of the informa-
tion, I just remembered that the description of the contact and liaison pro-
cedures of the Imperial Scout Service in GURPS Traveller First In might
help to get an idea on how the Imperium treats its relations with "primi-
tive" worlds.

Based on this, I think that Earth would not yet have been accepted as a
member world, and would still have been under a long term liaison status,
with a scout team present to watch and perhaps influence the events, but
without a formal representation of the Imperial diplomatic service.

 

[GamerDude]

Again... I've never said anyone was WRONG. I've never said "do NOT use that source".

But, I do love that people claim to get my point then tell me something that shows they don't.

After over 30 years of careers that require both examining existing material, conducting research to develop new knowledge to add to existing material, having to help many others (as a college professor and not as one) how to sift through material for applicability, validity, and accuracy... and add in how so important this is in the age of the Internet where any dork can toss up a web site, get on a forum, hit up an elist and start presenting things in a twisted way.

I make a point of acknowledging when something is a good place to look for ideas, while placing them in the context of the entire body of knowledge. I also have a hugely bad taste for seeing G:T material presented as 'the end all' here after what one individual did early on using G:T material to start arguments (and admit the post shouldn't have been on these forums to begin with).

Yeah, I wrote my sig block with a reason, for all of us including myself. But, just because a few or even every one but me wants to loudly shout me down because they prefer to present something as 'more valid, more authoritative' than how I see it is (based on the direct conversations with the creator of all this) doesn't mean I will tuck my tail between my legs and just run away.

I don't care if someone who was there with Traveller from day one, but isn't the creator, isn't licensed or cleared to be writing 'official' material (that means as declared by the creator) but knows almost more about it than the guy who created all this... I won't put it forward as the "oh end all on the topic" and on the exact same level as everything from the creator of the game. It will be good, damm good most likely, odds on that if the creator was to be sanctioning such a work I would expect this to be what he sanctioned, but it ain't sanctioned.

Martin, direct to you we've talked a tiny bit email/PM's here and what I've said in those match what I've said on these forum. I think you are fantastic, I would agree if someone were to pick you as the one person who knows Traveller/The Third Imperium as well (if not better than Marc).

G:T, I've said always these are fantastic books, great for ideas and as possible ways Marc may have addressed something if he had written about it, but it is all intentionally 'speculative' (which I think is a better word) meaning.. you can use the logo, you have to be close, but none of it counts as how the game's creator sees it.

So go ahead, ridicule me, use veiled or 'slightly twisted' wording to give things a higher status or greater validity or make it sound 'sanctioned' by the powers that be. And I'll be right there acknowledging how great the product is how I own it and use it, but that I know it isn't the "authority" it's presented as.

P.S. btw.. according to Marc in the same email, he by name lists Mongoose Traveller as 'non-canon, apocrypha just like G:T, d20 Traveller, and some others'

 

[apoc527]

I sense we're in a never ending circular argument here. The only way stop a circular argument is to quit it. Therefore, I'm done arguing source authoritativeness.

 

[GamerDude]

I sense we're in a never ending circular argument here. The only way stop a circular argument is to quit it. Therefore, I'm done arguing source authoritativeness.

True, it's actually like trying to wrestle a pig...
All you do is get you both dirty and it just pisses off the pig.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

I found the Classic Traveller reference. It is found in Supplement 11: Library Data N-Z page 30-31 under the entry:

War, Imperial Rules of
The rules of war are an accumulation of unwritten concepts established on a case-by-case basis. They have not been officially codified to prevent formal precedent from preventing Imperial intervention. The main aim of the rules is to maintain the economic and military well-being of the realm."

Basically the entry goes on to say, in general, about politics and social pressures and whatnot. The rules kind of are.
Short wars are good (it lets off steam)
Wars between planets and systems are bad, except if there is an off-planet influence (my example here), say a megacorp, assistance is ok as long as on-planet personnel are doing most of the fighting."
All fighting is on-planet

But here is the big one.

One prohibition is clear and firm: use or possession of nuclear weapons, if discovered, and regardless of size and type, will amost certainly trigger Imperial intervention. The Imperium alone retains the rights to such weapons, because of ther extreme destructive powers and the relatively low tech level at which they can be manufactured. For similar reasons, certain other weapons (chemical and bacteriological agent, and meson accelerators, for example) are strictly controlled, although they are not subject to the sweeping restrictions placed on nuclear weapons.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Marc Miller's Traveller
Milleu 0 page 92 under

The Imperium
The following entries give insight into the functioning of the Third Imperium, the most powerful government within human space.
Government Structure: The Imperium can be thought of best as a form of feudal confederation. Member worlds of the Imperium agree to pay taxes and obey a few fundamental laws which the Imperium promulgates, known as the High Laws. In return, the Imperium agrees to patrol the space between worlds, to protrect interstellar trade, to engourage travel and commerce, and to arbitrate diplomatic relations among worlds. Beyond this, individual worlds are left to their own devices, so long as they acknowledge of the power of the Imperium to rule the space between the stars.

Yes it is misspelled that way in the book. I am looking for what the "High Laws" are, but have not found a reference.

 

[GamerDude]

Nathan, looks like you found what has been said all along.

Although my "personal" take on "worlds/between worlds" means the system and between systems. yes we can debate that there are systems with multiple 'habitable worlds' or that any planet is a 'world' inhabited by humanity in some way or not. But it would be that, a debate.

Again MY take on it.