How many ships at a busy (OTU) starport?

dayriff

Mongoose
I was writing up some notes for a world with about as busy a starport as you're going to get. It's an atmosphere 6 world with an A population (about 86 billion, I think), a Class A starport, tech level B, and along some Jump-1 routes through a string of reasonably high tech, population 6+ worlds. (Jump-2 route to the subsector capital.)

Anyway, I wanted to make a point that even though it's a high Law world, smuggling is still fairly common do to the sheer volume of cargo that gets passed through. (Just don't get caught.) I started to write something along the lines of, "Because of the sheer volume of ship traffic (up to ten thousand vessels at a time), it-"

Then I stopped myself. That seemed like maybe too much. I wasn't sure how high I really wanted to go, though. Thousands? Up to a thousand? Hundreds? I don't know.

Opinions?
 
From something I'm working on ...

D-CLASS PORT: BOSASO
Bosaso harbour is the main port of Somalia. It has one Ro-Ro (roll-on roll-off) berth cap­able of taking a 175 meter long container ship, but has no loading or unloading facilities.

Other than that one berth, only small Dhows with of 350-800 tons can be accommodated.

The port handles export of an unspecified amount of Frankincense, 1.2 mill­ion head of livestock (cattle, sheep and goats) per annum, at an av­erage value of $45 per head, and ani­mal skins.

C-CLASS PORT: BERBERA
Berbera (Somalia) can handle 12 General Cargo ships of up to 325m and could unload 120,000 tons of cargo per month before thewar, but now handles only 50,000 tons.

Berthing ops are only possible during daylight because of destruction of pre-war navigat­ion aids.

The Port Authority has 410 perm­an­ent employ­ees, about the same num­ber of Contractors and app­roximately 900 stevedores.

Ships carrying up to 20,000 head of livestock regularly depart for the Gulf States.

CLASS B PORT: HAVANA
Havana (Cuba) has four docks cap­ab­le of han­d­ling cargo ships of up to 40,000 deadweight tons each and 160,000 dwt total, and hand­les around 1 million tons of cargo per year out of a capacity of around 4 million tons due to the US embargo.

It also has the capacity to handle pass­enger liners of up to 70,000 tons and can handle up to 50,000 passengers per year.

Most data from Wikipedia.

I deliberately chose atypical choices for a particular reason, but there are Wikipedia pages on ports from more populous places ...

Howland Hook Marine Terminal (NY)
The port has a ship berth that is 3,000 m (914) long on the Arthur Kill.

The berth is 42 ft (13 m) deep for a 2300 ft (701 m), and 37 ft (11 m) deep for the remaining 700 ft (210 m) of berth. It handles 412,000 square feet (38,000 m²) containers and includes deep-freeze, refrigeration and United States Customs Service inspection. It has an on-site intermodal rail connection for shipping across the Arthur Kill to New Jersey and the national rail network.

Or try ...

http://www.panynj.gov/DoingBusinessWith/seaport/html/port_newark.html

http://www.sfport.com/site/port_page.asp?id=31654

You have to dig, sometimes, for useful data, but its a start.

Phil
 
GURPS Traveller Starports has the necessary information to calculate
both the tonnage of freight and the number of passengers for any OTU
starport, and it is not difficult to convert the tonnage into a reasonable
number of ships.
 
There's a description in GT:Rim of Fire of Muan Gwi's starport (the Vegan homeworld) that says it's got at least one 100,000dt megafreighter arriving per hour and loads of other ships too. I'll dig up the exact quote when I get home (or someone else can look it up?). I remember that it was damn busy though.
 
Don't know if this is a good example but :) If the world has a high population and an A or B starport, think of the starport like a large airport. With dozens of ships arriving and departing every hour or half hour.

Now I'd guess that a Class E port on a low population world might have one starship arrive a month I'd say...

Just my two credits :D

Mike
 
qstor said:
Now I'd guess that a Class E port on a low population world might have one starship arrive a month I'd say...
In the OTU, however, its more likely they're like the Somali port ... few big western style merchantmen, but lots of small dhows.

In starport terms, few big bulk carrying starships, but considerably more 100 ton Free Traders.

Remember, the whole existence of the OTU 3I is predicated on there being LOTS of trade.

Phil
 
EDG said:
There's a description in GT:Rim of Fire of Muan Gwi's starport (the Vegan homeworld) that says it's got at least one 100,000dt megafreighter arriving per hour and loads of other ships too. I'll dig up the exact quote when I get home (or someone else can look it up?). I remember that it was damn busy though.

OK, Muan Gwi: Type A starport, world population 41 billion, alien homeworld. This is pretty much quoted direct from RoF:

Over 100 million passengers use Muan Gwi's starport per year. It has six Highports, each serving an average of about one 100,000 ton megafreighter per hour, along with countless smaller ships. Each highport is unique, but the smallest is a cylinder 3 miles long. Most of the traffic goes to Muan Issler, a system one parsec away [that has a population of 13 billion].

In GT terms, the Muan Gwi/Issler pair have a BTN of 13 to get those sorts of numbers, which is really at the high end of things.

So for that kind of thing, yeah, tens of thousands of ships per day may be about right. This dwarfs anything we've got on Earth today.
 
I wrote up a full description of the starport at Vincennes/Deneb using the GT:Starports rules and posted it on the TML about five years ago. This is an edited version, because the original was about 1,000 words long. (For the record, Vincennes is a rare example of a TL-16 world, with population 11 billion. Its most famous feature is its flying cities, using anti-grav engines to lift above the waterworld's constant hurricanes).


VINCENNES STARPORT

Vincennes' starport is Type A. It comprises three separate highports (Vincennes Orbital A, B and C) plus a downport (Vincennes Downport).

Incoming traffic must contact Vincennes Orbital Control at 800,000 miles. Positive control is exerted over all ships entering the zone within 80,000 miles of the surface; they must notify Control of their flight plan and are assigned a vector and timeslot. Vincennes space is extremely crowded, and any deviation from the assigned course could quickly lead to disaster. The planetary and SPA authorities are not inclined to be lenient with any ship that strays from its flight path.

The gas giant Oxford (Undraczech-IV) is 2.42 AU (min) 3.22 AU (max) from Vincennes and is also covered by traffic control. Vessels are warned that the gas giant Harvard (Undraczech-V) is a restricted military zone and approach within 100 diameters is strictly forbidden (this interdiction is imposed and enforced by Vincennes, but with the permission and approval of the local Imperial authorities).

Customs formalities at Vincennes are moderate. All ships must open their cargo manifests and passenger lists for inspection, and the Vincennes Revenue Service maintains a large fleet of fast, armed cutters to carry out spot-checks. These are normally on outgoing vessels, to ensure that restricted or unlicenced high technology is not being exported from Vincennes.
____________________________________________________

TRADE LEVELS

WTN = 6.5
Port Size = 8

Vincennes' starport handles 600 million tons of cargo and 45 million passengers every year. It earns an annual revenue of MCr 121,389 and employs over 600,000 personnel.

In a single week, Vincennes is visited by an average 22.6 million tons of shipping, which typically breaks down as follows:

226 x 5,000-20,000 dton megafreighters
1,356 x 800-5,000 dton bulk freighters
9,040 x 100-800 dton merchant ships
40,680 x 100 dton and smaller craft

Excluding the small craft, that is 10,622 ships in-system at any moment (assuming they spend one week between jumps). Put another way, another ship jumps in every 57 seconds.

The starport employs 2,250 small craft for cargo and passenger transfers - 700 boats, 450 pinnaces, 650 cutters and 450 shuttles. (Note that these figures were calculated at twice normal efficiency because Vincennes' cities approach so close to the highport anyway). In addition, 200 shuttles carry starport personnel to and from the highports, and 120 oilers bring fuel from the world's oceans into orbit.

Vincennes can construct 1,500,000 tons of starships per year at normal rates. 600,000 tons of this capacity is public, at the orbital starports; the rest is privately-owned and government facilities.
__________________________________________________________

STARPORT DETAILS

Vincennes Orbital A
(B and C are identical)
Cost: MCr 132,665 Displacement: 21,000,000 dtons
Mass: 17,744,318 tons GTL: 12 (TL 15)

Station-keeping drive, 0.012 G acceleration

The highport is shaped roughly like a jumping jack: a central round pod (160m diameter) with six arms (each 530m long) leading out from it in the cardinal directions, each with another pod on the end. These seven pods each have their own bridge, lifesupport and fusion reactor facilities and so can operate independently in the event of a disaster. The highport is new (less than 30 years old), shiny, bustling, very well-maintained, and extemely prosperous. Don't even think about what the rent per square metre is like...

_____________________________________________________

Vincennes Downport
Cost: MCr 41,238 Displacement: 10,000,000 dtons
GTL: 12 (TL 15)

The Downport is buried beneath the soil of Vincennes' single continent to protect it from the regular hurricane-force winds. It comprises five large bunkers within a 59 square mile area surrounded by the XT line. A maglev leads to the sea and the underwater arcologies of Leresif. Vincennes Downport is significantly older than the Highport(s) and tends to be used for bulk shipments of resources rather than the high-value manufactured goods and passenger trade of the highport. It is therefore somewhat shabby, run-down and industrial; rents are low and the facilities are not the best. Condensation is a frequent problem, leading to musty smells, corrosion, dripping water and even growths on the walls, despite the best efforts of the SPA maintenance personnel.
 
Hey look at it this way, forget all the made up hype stats and just look at the placement of the world to trade routes and the surrounding other systems to that world. Look at it's resources and those of the neighboring systems, and then on paper plan out the trade routes and number of ships supporting them.

There is no real way to number crunch this , it is a GM call simply. I would say if this is a large pop world with a A type starport then make the number in the range of 100+ ships in the system at any one time. This would be ships jumping in, out, and already at the starport. Also don't forget the non-jump ships that would also be in system as well too. Make the traffic something that you can manage and keep track of if you have to. Plan things out works out very well in the long run for you the GM, the campaign, and enjoyment of your players in the long run.

Penn
 
Bygoneyrs said:
There is no real way to number crunch this , it is a GM call simply.

Actually, there is a very real way to number crunch it - it's called GT: Far Trader.
 
Ok you can use all that Cargo stats and etc, but seriously the newer players are not going to have that older stuff(I do), and so I would much perfer GMs to use their own minds and make it up themselves.

Look guys the "rules" are meant to be a loose guide only. Don't get so hung up in all the number crunching stuff. Also for the record my own campaign has existed for 20+ yrs, and my last gaming group played in it for 12+ yrs as well too. Now I had shut down my game to redesign it using Traveller Hero but, have decided to use Mongoose Traveller rules instead.

Guys just have fun and think it all out, and put in what you think is needed for your plots.

Penn
 
If the worlds around it are "poorer", then most of the traffic will be native, as ships will have originated on this world and serve as resource gatherers. Those ships will also be designed to deal with both ends of their routes. "Mega Freighters" imply other ports capable of loading them. If the surrounding worlds are pretty rough, your common shipping tonnage will either be built to land and load directly or be built with massive subcraft handling capabilities.

All it takes is for common metals or basic foodstuffs to be outsourced to generate a huge volume of shipping. "Outsourced" can be as close as the next moon over (if your mainworld is a GG moon) or as far as a jump or two away, but for a world with tens of billion inhabitants, even single crop shipments need to be on HUGE ships (or on a huge number of smaller ships).

As an example, the city I live in probably has a displacement ton of broccoli spread out amongst the various grocery stores at any given time. That broccoli will either be purchased or go bad every few days. For Earth's population thats (in round numbers) 20,000 displacement tons of broccoli twice a week. That's just broccoli, mind you. Carrots, potatoes, turnips, etc are each their own pair of 10,000 ton freighters every week.

Your example world has 10 times as many people...
 
Bygoneyrs said:
Look guys the "rules" are meant to be a loose guide only. Don't get so hung up in all the number crunching stuff. Also for the record my own campaign has existed for 20+ yrs, and my last gaming group played in it for 12+ yrs as well too. Now I had shut down my game to redesign it using Traveller Hero but, have decided to use Mongoose Traveller rules instead.

Guys just have fun and think it all out, and put in what you think is needed for your plots.

Oh, I certainly will. I was just trying to figure out what order of magnitude seemed roughly reasonable. As several folks on this thread have pointed out, the very existence of the Imperium implies a lot of trade.

The question of whether all traffic has to go through the starport is also interesting. If you're funneling an entire world's traffic through a single location, it's going to get pretty busy/big. Howver, I've designed one low-law world with dozens of "spaceports" in addition to the official Imperium-controlled starport where ships are welcome to land. Fun!
 
BenGunn said:
But it and it's companion StarPorts are so dry in the "numbers" department that you either get "Black Lung" from all the dust or mutate into an accountant. Neither is good for roleplaying.

Well, they're for people who want to know the trade numbers (I've used FT to generate trade routes for a whole sector and believe me it was eye-opening and added a hell of a lot of useful info to the sector) and the legalities of interstellar trade and transport. Those books do exactly what they say they do, and they give you a consistent framework to build on. And most of that is background info for the GM to use beforehand when preparing the sectors, and that isn't going to affect actual roleplaying at all.

If you want to make it up off the top of your head then nobody's stopping you, but unless you're an expert in economics then don't assume that whatever you've made up is going to make any sense.
 
BenGunn said:
EDG said:
Bygoneyrs said:
There is no real way to number crunch this , it is a GM call simply.

Actually, there is a very real way to number crunch it - it's called GT: Far Trader.

But it and it's companion StarPorts are so dry in the "numbers" department that you either get "Black Lung" from all the dust or mutate into an accountant. Neither is good for roleplaying.

They're pretty good and useful reads even ignoring the numbers - although I like the numbers, too.

My main hesitation about them is that they seem to not scale the small nowheresville sectors in a way that makes player trade possible....the nowheresville sector I was looking at, seems to have a trade net that supports a maxium of one or two far traders (or one fat trader, perhaps) on a 1 year ring route - and even at that there are lots of stops that will require travelling in ballast afterwards, so profit is VERY iffy. And as its been settled for at least 1k years, I can't imagine that there is any room for a new player in the game. Its mostlly world with a trade rating of 3 generally J2 apart - so the bilateral trade (using Far trader) all are around 5 -5.5; a few hundred Dtons per year. On the other hand, it sure justifies the concept of subsidised ships -a dozen or so worlds (even piddly ones) can club together to make sure they have some kind of contact/trade-and they'll have to, to get anyone to risk their morgage there.

I suspect that any such subsidised routes are essentially family guild type setups - and as ironclad, exclusionary, and fiercely defended as any long term economic caste system. Which is an adventure hook I itself, I guess, but a really harsh one. And much easier to go elsewhere.

Its likely a good model of trade, but not for gaming in sectors where manyplayers slouch about in - the butt end of nowhere.
 
dayriff said:
Oh, I certainly will. I was just trying to figure out what order of magnitude seemed roughly reasonable. As several folks on this thread have pointed out, the very existence of the Imperium implies a lot of trade.

I dug up my OLD CT notes, and lo and behold, I did have a very rough guideline for trade volume:
Code:
between two ports
treat the starport as a digit : 
A=4
B=3
C=2
D=1
E=0

Ignore X ports

Average the startport values between any two ports round up, and subtract for distance 
J    Mod
1   =+1
2   = 0
3   =-1
4   =-1
5   =-2
6  = -4
final number is the traveller power digit for tens of ships per year: subtract 1 for monthly, two for yearly. They dont add up exacly, granted, but who cares.
Example:
A type A port and a type B port two hexes apart = (4+3)/2 +0 for distance = a trade of 4 between them per year.

Total for a port would be the sum of the planets out to J6; alternately, just calculate the best pair, and add one for each other port that has a port value -distance value >0 (up to J6)

Size of ships is a bit arbitrary, I think that this was apre HG calculation -average hull size was set a 3000dTons -for a post HG universe, perhaps 10k -30K ?

I played around with final digit also suggesting the size code of the average ships....that gives a really steep ramp up for high quality routes, though, so YMMV ( 2x type A ports one hex apart= 10^5 ships of 10^5 dtons, two type D ports would have 10^2 ships of 10^2 tons )


Like I said, these are from nearly 20 year old notes that were meant to apply to a a small number of worlds in a specific campaign, so YMMV, and they probably will break a a general system. Also, they don;t account for population or tech -both of which I applied idiosycratically, IIRC, based on the needs of the campaign as much as anything.* But, I present this as an example of a quick and dirty, calculator free trade assessment.

* I think somthing like: final trade value for a port cannot exceed its population digit - and if the population digit is 8+ add 10-pop to the port value; and tech strongly influences port type, I ignored it.
 
captainjack23 said:
I dug up my OLD CT notes, and lo and behold, I did have a very rough guideline for trade volume:

[...]

final number is the traveller power digit for tens of ships per year: subtract 1 for monthly, two for yearly. They dont add up exacly, granted, but who cares.

[...]

Like I said, these are from nearly 20 year old notes that were meant to apply to a a small number of worlds in a specific campaign, so YMMV...

I developed something very similar to this about 11 years ago (and I think G:FT also does something similar, though more involved).
 
I found this page (Quick Interstellar Trade System) a while ago dealing with the volume of trade between two ports.

I have no idea if it is associated with a particular ruleset, or if it generates reasonable numbers, but I thought I'd throw it out there for consideration.
 
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