How is Working Together supposed to work?

[amjxt9]

Edit: I guess I did a bad job of asking my question because nobody is answering the question I asked. So, I will try again. Sorry for previous confusion.

I completely understand a regular task chain. In that same section of the book (2e) it talks about using the same table for characters helping each other. The book says this:



"Task chains usually assume that while Travellers are working together, they are waiting for the results of one check in order to affect the next. However, there will be times when Travellers are working at the same time on exactly the same task and will wish to combine their efforts.In these situations, the task chain rules can still be used but with one Traveller making the ‘final’ check and the others making checks to add task chain modifiers."

"For example, Erik and Kathya are trying to force open a locked door within a smuggler’s asteroid lair with brute strength. Erik is the strongest with STR 9 and so he puts his shoulder into the door but fears he alone mighty not be enough. Kathya has STR 7 and helps. Kathya makes an STR check and consults the Task Chain table in order to provide a DM to Erik’s STR check, which will determine whether the door is forced open or not."

So, the book doesn't specify if the person providing assistance has the same target number as the person leading. The assumption then is that it is the same TN, but if that is true, why have someone assist at all? You are taking a situation where the GM asked for a single successful roll and forcing yourselves to have to get 2 successes instead of 1.

Using the example above GM says "to open the door you need to make a strength test with a TN 12" Erik doesn't want to chance it so asks kathya for help. Kathya rolls and gets a total of 14, which is an effect of +2. This gives Erik a + 2 on his roll. Erik rolls an 8, adds his +2 for a total of 10. He fails the roll and the door doesn't open.

Kathya rolled high enough to meet the original request, but since she was only assisting, the door doesn't open.... This doesn't make sense to me...
So, is the intent that the person assisting is rolling against a lower TN?
In this case, should Kathya's roll be against a TN 8?

 

[Arkathan]

The door example is not a task chain.
For that situation, I would give the person with the higher strength mod a boon. Depending on how much room they have to attack the door without getting in each other's way, I could consider letting both of their strength mods apply.

And yes, I understand that it is from the book, but you are correct that it makes no sense in that it is not a chain.

 

[amjxt9]

The door example is not a task chain.
For that situation, I would give the person with the higher strength mod a boon. Depending on how much room they have to attack the door without getting in each other's way, I could consider letting both of their strength mods apply.

And yes, I understand that it is from the book, but you are correct that it makes no sense in that it is not a chain.

That example is in the working together subsection of Task Chains. I agree with what you are saying but trying to understand what the publishers intended here because the example I'm using is straight from their book and doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Arkathan]

A better example would be Katya and Erik are working on the same computer program in order to cut the time without incurring a penalty - or at least get a bonus without increasing time. The lower skill rolls first and hopefully aids the other.
In this situation, failure of either makes more sense than a situation of two people pushing and one's failure cancels the other's success when only one success would have sufficed.

 

[amjxt9]

A better example would be Katya and Erik are working on the same computer program in order to cut the time without incurring a penalty - or at least get a bonus without increasing time. The lower skill rolls first and hopefully aids the other.
In this situation, failure of either makes more sense than a situation of two people pushing and one's failure cancels the other's success when only one success would have sufficed.

That makes a lot of sense, but it is changing the actual goal and the aid is to make things go faster not to actually accomplish the initial goal. So if Kathya wants to help Erik with the computer program and just provide aid, not change time requirements, how would that work... if the TN is the same for both of them why do it at all?
Also I updated the original post to include the exact example from the book.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I don't use the task chain method for a variety of reasons.

If there is a situation that may take a bit of effort and more than one person, skill, whatever then I use situation threshold number.

A player rolls for a situation, and their margin of success is tallied. Another player and or another skill is applied and the tally increases by their margin of success and so on. Once the tally reaches the threshold the task is resolved. A failure contributes nothing, but takes time,

 

[Arkathan]

That makes a lot of sense, but it is changing the actual goal and the aid is to make things go faster not to actually accomplish the initial goal. So if Kathya wants to help Erik with the computer program and just provide aid, not change time requirements, how would that work... if the TN is the same for both of them why do it at all?
Also I updated the original post to include the exact example from the book.

Were it me, and they were just helping each other to get it right the first time, I would give the better character a boon and it takes the full time. One is debugging the other's code as it is written.

With both working on different sections and then integrating them, but not using time to get a bonus, I would use the task chain to get a bonus and allow the effect to reduce the full time roll.

Two different methodologies to get similar results with flexibility for what you want to focus on.

 

[amjxt9]

Were it me, and they were just helping each other to get it right the first time, I would give the better character a boon and it takes the full time. One is debugging the other's code as it is written.

With both working on different sections and then integrating them, but not using time to get a bonus, I would use the task chain to get a bonus and allow the effect to reduce the full time roll.

Two different methodologies to get similar results with flexibility for what you want to focus on.

Yeah so, what I'm getting from you is that you agree and the Working together as written doesn't make sense and you have to make alterations to it to make things work.

 

[amjxt9]

I don't use the task chain method for a variety of reasons.

If there is a situation that may take a bit of effort and more than one person, skill, whatever then I use situation threshold number.

A player rolls for a situation, and their margin of success is tallied. Another player and or another skill is applied and the tally increases by their margin of success and so on. Once the tally reaches the threshold the task is resolved. A failure contributes nothing, but takes time,

I like Task chains it's just the "Working Together" portion of the rules that doesn't add up for me.

I do like your method as well, very similar to how Savage Worlds does dramatic tasks.

 

[Condottiere]

I'd say it's specific to the situation, and requirements to achieve a specific goal.

Legal research may spread the task out to several assistants, to read different tomes at the same time, to find relevant cases.

 

[amjxt9]

I'd say it's specific to the situation, and requirements to achieve a specific goal.

Legal research may spread the task out to several assistants, to read different tomes at the same time, to find relevant cases.

Ok yeah, I agree but that doesn't address the question. Working together is when the gm calls for a roll and someone says, I want to help with that. As I read the rules in order to help they roll the same skill at the same target # and the effect gives pluses or minuses... But what's the point of the target number is the same for both. If the person assisting can roll higher than the TN without aid, why aren't they just doing the task to begin with?

 

[rinku]

I think the point you may be missing is that a group task is something all the characters are working on together at the same time. Unlike some tasks where one character's work must be complete before the next one gets to roll (eg. Astrogation plot -> Engineering check to Jump).

Technically all the rolls are simultaneous, but one is the designated leader and it's convenient to make that roll last. But the final result will always be their roll modified by the other results. Mathematically, you could roll them in any order. John provides +1, Leader misses the target by one, Mary provides -1, Alpha-3 provides a +1, giving an exact success. But rolling Leader last usually works best for dramatic tension.

And that's another point - the helpers are NOT completing the task - their roll is adding a modifier to the one check for the whole group made using the leader.

Since failed rolls can make it harder for the leader, ALL rolls have to be made. Someone may royally screw up.

And I guess there's another approach that may be appropriate in other situations, where each character has an individual go. That's how a group shooting at the same target works in combat, and may be the best way to run it for some other jobs.

 

[Condottiere]

Within the mechanics of Traveller, a boon.

Or, a bane, if the assistant tends to get in the way.

However, I would say it really depends if you can logically say that more assistance does add on as a bonus, and if there is a cap.

 

[rinku]

Yep. Whatever feels most appropriate to the situation. It's usually clear if it's a sequence of tasks (research -> build -> test), something the group is all working on together (move bricks, salvage a wreck), or something they're making individual task rolls for where more than one success or fail can happen (combat, scouring the station for rumours).

Task chains and group tasks typically have ONE result.

Opening a stuck door might well be a series of attempts, one at a time, and if done as a group task probably has a limit to how many characters can work on it at once.

Boons and Banes can be applied to any of the above, but are really meant to be for situational effects aside from inherent difficulty or time frame.

 

[amjxt9]

I think the point you may be missing is that a group task is something all the characters are working on together at the same time. Unlike some tasks where one character's work must be complete before the next one gets to roll (eg. Astrogation plot -> Engineering check to Jump).

Technically all the rolls are simultaneous, but one is the designated leader and it's convenient to make that roll last. But the final result will always be their roll modified by the other results.

And that's another point - the helpers are NOT completing the task - their roll is adding a modifier to the one check for the whole group made using the leader.

Since failed rolls can make it harder for the leader, ALL rolls have to be made. Someone may royally screw up.

And I guess there's another approach that may be appropriate in other situations, where each character has an individual go. That's how a group shooting at the same target works in combat, and may be the best way to run it for some other jobs.

Yes what you are describing is a task chain. I stated at the beginning that I understand task chains. What I don't understand is the section directly following task chains that talks about "Working Together" and I even put the exact text from the book in where it is talking about a thing that needs to be done and someone taking the lead and another person helping, but both are making the same roll, such as the stuck door example which I also copied and pasted into my post. In it both people are trying to open a single door that has a specific TN to open. They are both making strength tests... This is like me saying " ok Erik you need a Strength test with a TN of 12 to open the door" Erik says "Ok but that's kinda hard for me, kathya can you help?" Then kathya rolls to help and has to still roll a strength with TN 12, but since she's helping her success only adds to Eric's roll, so why doesn't she just succeed in opening the door if the requirement to open the door is a strength test of 12 or better?

 

[amjxt9]

Yep. Whatever feels most appropriate to the situation. It's usually clear if it's a sequence of tasks (research -> build -> test), something the group is all working on together (move bricks, salvage a wreck), or something they're making individual task rolls for where more than one success or fail can happen (combat, scouring the station for rumours).

Task chains and group tasks typically have ONE result.

Yeah I get what a task chain is but that isn't the question

 

[amjxt9]

Within the mechanics of Traveller, a boon.

Or, a bane, if the assistant tends to get in the way.

However, I would say it really depends if you can logically say that more assistance does add on as a bonus, and if there is a cap.

Yeah but I'm trying to understand what the writers are intending by the rules that I pasted into the original post.
I can come up with other ways to accomplish this, I just want to know what was originally intended.

 

[rinku]

Yes what you are describing is a task chain. I stated at the beginning that I understand task chains. What I don't understand is the section directly following task chains that talks about "Working Together" and I even put the exact text from the book in where it is talking about a thing that needs to be done and someone taking the lead and another person helping, but both are making the same roll, such as the stuck door example which I also copied and pasted into my post. In it both people are trying to open a single door that has a specific TN to open. They are both making strength tests... This is like me saying " ok Erik you need a Strength test with a TN of 12 to open the door" Erik says "Ok but that's kinda hard for me, kathya can you help?" Then kathya rolls to help and has to still roll a strength with TN 12, but since she's helping her success only adds to Eric's roll, so why doesn't she just succeed in opening the door if the requirement to open the door is a strength test of 12 or better?

I answered that.

Because they CHOSE to both work on the door as a team, at the same time, instead of taking turns individually and thus use the task chain rules. Which means that the helper check modifies the leader check and does not complete the task.

Per the text you quoted, they indeed had the option of taking turns. Usually, forcing a door is a task you can keep attempting.

I just realised you might also have misunderstood the respective target numbers. Erik is rolling against the task difficulty (presumably 8+, but it might be higher) - Kathya is not. She is rolling a simple STR check (target number 8+), and if she rolls a 8 gives him a +1, or a +2 on a 9-12.

Does that help?

 

[Condottiere]

It could be both bane and bane, without actually cancelling each other out.

You only have so much space for multiple people to try to force a door open, and for each person lending a hand, you get a minus for being in the way.

But, if their contributory effort is greater than that penalty, it would be worthwhile for them to assist.

 

[rinku]

Yep. Always look at how many people can usefully work at a task together.