How can pirates work?

[AKAramis]

PF, Phill:

Piracy still exists and even flourishes in the modern world, specifically because the duty to suppress piracy is unenforceable. The states which actively support piracy either do so with no fear of reprisal, as they are using it for economic conflict (Supposedly China is funding some of the malay piracy), or is based out of states which have little to no naval presence but enough visibility to prevent violations of their territorial waters by the "stronger" navies (EG: Somalia).

The small remainder is mostly insurance fraud.

 

[aspqrz]

From the OED.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/hang?view=uk

Well, actually, from the Concise Oxford Dictionary, which is not the same at all as the OED, all multiple volumes of it.

OK. So UK usage is probably hanged, US isn't, definitively, and Australian, per the Macquarie Dictionary, isn't, either.

Like I said, it's unwise to assume one's local definition of a word, even in English, is definitively the same elsewhere :wink:

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

 

[aspqrz]

Well actually, the fates of the pirates, privateers, and commerce raiders all depends on whether or not the criminals are actually able to survive to come to trial. "What do you mean, they were shot trying to escape?"

Problem: Pirates are criminals, if convicted.

Privateers and Commerce Raider crews are not and murdering them, which is what you are advocating, is a war crime.

Now, there is evidence that the Imperium has war crimes legislation - the one on Nukes, for example - and that they treat Mercs who obey the laws of war as POWs not as criminals.

Yes, Imperial forces could commit war crimes on a regular basis ... but the reason for IHL is to make it easier for nation states to come to a peace treaty when the war, inevitably, ends.

If one or both sides is fighting "no quarter" then the war becomes bloodier for both.

Hence the behaviour you suggest will be stomped on. Hard. By all parties.

Sure, from time to time, some smart alecs might get away with it, but it's unlikely it will ever be policy or that, if it comes to the attention of higher command, that it won't be punished.

That's as much in the 3I's interests as it is in their enemy's.

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

 

[AKAramis]

From the OED.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/hang?view=uk

Well, actually, from the Concise Oxford Dictionary, which is not the same at all as the OED, all multiple volumes of it.

OK. So UK usage is probably hanged, US isn't, definitively, and Australian, per the Macquarie Dictionary, isn't, either.

Like I said, it's unwise to assume one's local definition of a word, even in English, is definitively the same elsewhere :wink:

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

Phil: the mirriam-webster is not the definitive dictionary in the US, and in every english course I've taken, people are hanged, and inanimate objects are hung.

the American Heritage Dictionary has the following useage note:
Usage Note: Hanged, as a past tense and a past participle of hang, is used in the sense of "to put to death by hanging," as in Frontier courts hanged many a prisoner after a summary trial. A majority of the Usage Panel objects to hung used in this sense. In all other senses of the word, hung is the preferred form as past tense and past participle, as in I hung my child's picture above my desk.


The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Well, actually, from the Concise Oxford Dictionary, which is not the same at all as the OED, all multiple volumes of it.

Yes it is. The COD is the concise form of the OED - the definitions are the same, ie: identical.

OK. So UK usage is probably hanged, US isn't, definitively, and Australian, per the Macquarie Dictionary, isn't, either.

No probably about it. UK usage is 'hanged'. In the US, it can be too; certainly not definitively not.

And your contention that the 3I's definition of piracy has to be identical to a 20/21c definition of piracy on the high seas is ludicrous.

i) there is no legal continuity between 'us' and the 3I. Sylean law is not Earth law.

ii) just because the 3I defines all space outside of the 100d limit as 'their' space, this does not been piracy cannot exist. Flat Earthers say the Earth is flat; that does not make it so. Just because our definition requires it to be 'outside national waters' doesn't make it the same in the 3I.

iii) if there are private vessels attacking and raiding legitimate traders then they are pirates - that is the only sensible term to use. 'Highway robbers' is patently silly.

It would be nice to have a proper discussion about piracy without having to refute sophist nonsense every other post. I'm sorry, but that's what these arguments amount to.

 

[aspqrz]

Phil: the mirriam-webster is not the definitive dictionary in the US, and in every english course I've taken, people are hanged, and inanimate objects are hung.

Which is nice, but so what?

A well respected American dictionary states that it is not definitive usage. I suppose we could go through and do some dictionary counting to see how many US dictionaries out of the total number of US dictionaries side with one version or the other.

Since my big Macquarie Dictionary is at work, and I won't have access to it for an hour or so, or time to post the definition from it for a couple of hours after that, in all likelihood, I will note, simply, that the oldest dictionary we have in the house, Chambers 20th Century Dictionary, originally published, 1901, revised edition, 1916, states "pa.t (past tense) and p.p. (past participle) hanged (= executed) or hung."

Australian usage evidently follows this earlier, possibly now obsolete, UK usage, something not uncommon ... for example, afaiui, most Americans would not understand "fortnight" unless they read a lot of UK or Aussie published books/magazine or watch a lot of UK/Aussie TV as the word came into UK/Aussie usage but did not cross the Atlantic successfully.

Ditto the struggle of aluminium vs. aluminum.

The point stands, and that is, hung = executed here and that, since Usenet is an international medium, assuming one's colloquialisms are universal does not make good policy.

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

 

[aspqrz]

Well, actually, from the Concise Oxford Dictionary, which is not the same at all as the OED, all multiple volumes of it.

Yes it is. The COD is the concise form of the OED - the definitions are the same, ie: identical.[/quote="Klaus Kipling"]

True, but misleading. A one volume dictionary with c. 145,000 entries vs. a multi volume set with 301100 entries where the latter might, just barely, be accounted more authoritative because of the extra detail it provides about those definitions.

As noted elsewhere, early 20th century (i.e. 1901-16) usage in the UK was equally hanged/hung, and I would suspect ... does someone have access to the full OED and care? ... that the full OED would make the point that hung is an older usage and, possibly, a still used one, if uncommon.

Dictionary writers expressing a "preference" are nice ... but irrelevant. Here in Oz we are fighting a rearguard action against the objectionable usage of "bathroom" for rooms containing only a toilet, and no bath ... for which you yanks have, evidently, now gone one objectioble step further and coined the awful "half bathroom" for a room containing only a toilet.

The mind boggles.

As the Macquarie dictionary makes it plain that hung is still acceptable Australian usage, and as I am an Aussie, that's what's important ... and, of course, the fact that usenet is not us-only.

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

 

[AKAramis]

Access to? yes, but not current one. Requires a 20 mile drive to the local uni.

Care, yes. Hanged implies execution in the US, according to the MLA, which is the official defining body in the US. Hung is their choice for the other uses.... which means it is the official definition, as is implied by the AHD's useage note, and those notes are BLOODY rare.

in US slang, a person "being hung" refers to being endowed with a large phallus... and is inherently off-color.

So the Aussie normal usage for Hung is problematic. The diplomatic solution is to instead say "executed by hanging"... and avoid the whole issue.

 

[aspqrz]

So the Aussie normal usage for Hung is problematic.

Probably only for people who are so ... wussy ... as to think that things such as "half bathrooms" should exist :lol:

The diplomatic solution is to instead say "executed by hanging"... and avoid the whole issue.

Or, equally, for people not to assume that their particular localised idiomatic expressions are actually universally accepted usage.

I remember some poor US company guy being torn to shreds by the Aussie press pack at Sydney Airport back during the Mining Boom of the 1970's because he referred to his company being there to "exploit Australia's resources" ... meaning, as was accepted in US parlance, at the time, that they would be developing the resources whereas, in Aussie parlance at the time it meant ripping off said resources.

Or Cassius Clay having to be bodily restrained by the Press Pack when a local journo said something along the lines of "Thanks, mate" ... mateship being something like a national religion herabouts ... but to Mr Clay it was seen as a ghetto slur against his manhood

So, a little less ugly american would be good, I suspect.

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au

 

[Talon Brightmane]

The change from hung to hanged is relatively recent (historically speaking) in the US and not universal. There are a number of offical reports from the 1800s that say something to the effect of a person being "hung from the neck until dead."

Of course, during the 1800s there were attempts to unify the usage and spelling of many words, which is part of the reason we Americans spell some words differently.

 

[aspqrz]

The change from hung to hanged is relatively recent (historically speaking) in the US and not universal. There are a number of offical reports from the 1800s that say something to the effect of a person being "hung from the neck until dead."

Of course, during the 1800s there were attempts to unify the usage and spelling of many words, which is part of the reason we Americans spell some words differently.

Webster, was it not, hence my assumption re Merriam-Webster.

Phil

 

[atpollard]

PF, Phill:

Piracy still exists and even flourishes in the modern world, specifically because the duty to suppress piracy is unenforceable. The states which actively support piracy either do so with no fear of reprisal, as they are using it for economic conflict (Supposedly China is funding some of the malay piracy), or is based out of states which have little to no naval presence but enough visibility to prevent violations of their territorial waters by the "stronger" navies (EG: Somalia).

The small remainder is mostly insurance fraud.

Seven pages is too much to read to catch up ...

... Have we adressed the obvious problem with comparing Earth Piracy to Traveller? [Pirates in Somalia attack ship's that are 'just passing by', but that would be in 'jumpspace' in Traveller. You cannot attack a ship in Jumpspace.]

What percentage of real world piracy happens within 20 miles of the port of departure or port of destination for a ship?

 

[Warlock32]

Actually, if you think about it, it shouldn't be ALL that hard to predict where a cargo ship will break out of Jump Space if it is going to an inhabited planet.

Your charts would place where the destination planet is located in the system along its orbital path so that you would ideally jump in with the least amount of insystem travel time. Probably slightly ahead of the planetary Orbital path so that you would let the planet's velocity do SOme of the work for you.

Come in at least 100 planetary diameters ahead of the target planet and that will place you in a Shallow cone ahead of the planet's path.


If i were a Vargr Corsair lookin' fer a wee bit o' Booty, I'd be laying doggo out there with Drives down waiting for a fat old Merchant to Drop in and launch a brace of 10-ton fighters to cripple him so I could catch him and strip him before the law catches me.

 

[simonh]

... Have we adressed the obvious problem with comparing Earth Piracy to Traveller? [Pirates in Somalia attack ship's that are 'just passing by', but that would be in 'jumpspace' in Traveller. You cannot attack a ship in Jumpspace.]

Brief sumary so far: "The Imperium wouldn't tolerate piracy so it can't happen". "Yes it can..." "No it can't...." "Yes it can..." "No it can't....." etc, etc. "Technicaly it's not piracy." "Yes it is..." "No it isn't..." "Yes it is..."etc, etc.

Plus pirtaes probably hide at choke points such as behind moons and inside gas giants or disguised as other kinds of ship, etc.

 

[Infojunky]

If i were a Vargr Corsair lookin' fer a wee bit o' Booty, I'd be laying doggo out there with Drives down waiting for a fat old Merchant to Drop in and launch a brace of 10-ton fighters to cripple him so I could catch him and strip him before the law catches me.

Despite the cannon ships, I see Piracy harking back to the style of original attacks, a bunch of dudes in boats swarming a ship.

The brace of fighters will in MTU will be supplemented with a variety of other small craft.

 

[zozotroll]

Yes warlock thats where they should wait for a merchie. But, assuming the local defense force has an IQ above room temurature, thats where they wait to catch pirates.

It osrt of goes in circles. Pirates do something. Merchies and Navies react to stop them Pirates do something else. And so on.

My biggest problem with a lot of the pirate schemes is for them to work long term you need stupid oposition. while I have enough examples all around to believe that humans can do some amazingly stupid things, I dont see all of them being that way other than the crafty pirates.

 

[Warlock32]

The way i would do it is with a pair of 400 ton Corsairs on Long, opposing "dead Orbits" that sweep through the likely Jump zone so they get coverage for a fair percent of the time. When one hits paydirt, the other lights off its Drive and starts a ruckus to draw off the law. while the actual raider takes the Merchie.

Then do variants of the above, shifting between 3-4 systems within a Jump-3 range envelope.

If you take 2-3 Merchants a year, it's probably enough to turn a profit.

 

[Xoph]

In OTU you could probably avoid the law for a long time if you keep on the move. A Pirate wouldn't stay put; that would be silly. By the time any law enforcement was showed up they'd be far away. Let alone the time it would take to call in the law.

 

[simonh]

My biggest problem with a lot of the pirate schemes is for them to work long term you need stupid oposition. while I have enough examples all around to believe that humans can do some amazingly stupid things, I dont see all of them being that way other than the crafty pirates.

To me to point of classic big-ship piracy is that it's incredibly dangerous, but also offers fabulous rewards. Few set out to intentionaly pursue long-term careers in piracy.

Simon Hibbs

 

[aspqrz]

To me to point of classic big-ship piracy is that it's incredibly dangerous, but also offers fabulous rewards. Few set out to intentionaly pursue long-term careers in piracy.

Which makes the Corsair (ship) both a) pointless overall and b) pointless as a privateer

Phil