How can pirates work?

Talon Brightmane said:
Commerce Raiding typically is the use of disguised military vessels to destroy the assests and supplies of an opponent during time of war. The actions of privateers can be considered to be a form of commerce raiding.

Priracy is little more than robbery that is done without the commission of a soverign nation. In a broad sense, and as defines by the UN Convention on the Laws of the Seas, piracy includes violence, detention, and depredation caused by a private vessel against vessels or individuals outside the jurisdiction of any state.

Privateers are "legal pirates," individuals given a letter of margue to attack foreign shipping. Privateers are allowed to operate only during wartime and were to be treated as POWs if captured. Historically, some did choose to operate during peacetime or target neutral vessels, which blurred the lines between privateers and pirates and led many to being declaired pirates.

A good summation.

The only thing you have left out is that for an act to be piracy, in a legal sense, is that it also has to be committed in an area beyond the defined normal legal reach of any governmental authority ... that is, for example, "on the high seas" ... beyond, classically, the 3 mile limit.

Since the Imperium claims the space between planets, amongst other things, that would mean that, technically, Piracy cannot occur in any Imperial system.

Since the Imperium claims the space between planets, I guess we can assume the Zhos, Darrians, Sword Worlders and others do as well ... which makes Piracy, in a techncal, legal, sense, possible only in unclaimed systems.

Which brings us to the issue of what constitutes an "unclaimed" system ... does 3I era Interstellar law include the concept of "Terra Nullius" ("Stellar Nullius?" :) ) which means, simply, if the system is uninhabited, it becomes instantly owned by the government that commissioned/registered the ship that first found it :wink:

Which would mean that you couldn't even have piracy there, not after the first discovery :?

Lurking in gas giants in discovered systems would be robbery, unless it constituted privateering and/or commerce raiding. Perhaps even "Highway Robbery", in a legal sense ... robbing someone on the King's highway. Not something Kings (or Emperors) like very much at all :twisted:

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
 
Yes I do know the difference, and as far as the victims are concerned, THEY ARE ALL PIRACY! If they are sponsored by one government or another they would be Privateering or Commerce Raiding, but otherwise it still would be a good time for pirates. And actually most Free Traders do go for the Wilderness refueling at gas giants rather than pay the high prices at the space port. It is usually the corporate ships that do not use the gas giants because they have a strict time schedule set by their bosses.
 
towerwarlock said:
Yes I do know the difference, and as far as the victims are concerned, THEY ARE ALL PIRACY!
Is it my fault their victims are legally illiterate? :wink:

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
 
aspqrz said:
towerwarlock said:
Yes I do know the difference, and as far as the victims are concerned, THEY ARE ALL PIRACY!
Is it my fault their victims are legally illiterate? :wink:

Who cares about definitions that exists now when in future they could just as well be changed?

Besides claiming to control something you can't control doesn't really make it your jurisdiction...3I can't control everything in space so for all intents and purposes there's plenty of area without jurisdicial control.

Since piracy exists in OTU it's clear that the definition HAS changed in the future. So your claim regarding definition is moot point.
 
aspqrz said:
Since the Imperium claims the space between planets, amongst other things, that would mean that, technically, Piracy cannot occur in any Imperial system.

Since the Imperium claims the space between planets, I guess we can assume the Zhos, Darrians, Sword Worlders and others do as well ... which makes Piracy, in a techncal, legal, sense, possible only in unclaimed systems.

This is meaningless - a legal fiction. You're using semantics to eliminate piracy.

If it quacks it's a duck; if it preys on merchantmen it's a pirate. Simple.
 
Klaus Kipling said:
aspqrz said:
Since the Imperium claims the space between planets, amongst other things, that would mean that, technically, Piracy cannot occur in any Imperial system.

Since the Imperium claims the space between planets, I guess we can assume the Zhos, Darrians, Sword Worlders and others do as well ... which makes Piracy, in a techncal, legal, sense, possible only in unclaimed systems.

This is meaningless - a legal fiction. Simple.

Hmm. Its not simple Piracy because that has a specific legal definition and what you refer to is actually commerce raiding or privateering, which is legally quite different.

For a start, Privateers can't be hung ... as long as they follow the requirements laid out in their Letters of Marque and Reprisal and follow the agreed protocols between the combatant powers (a legal successor to the Hague and Geneva Conventions - these are implied to have existed in the Nth Interstellar wars and, one presumes, do even in wars between the 3I and its opponents ... of course, its also implied that such rules may not have existed in the wars that led to the creation of the Ziru Sirka ... based on Gurps Interstellar Wars, which you may or may not regard as canon, depending on personal prejudice/preference/belief) ... they're "legal combatants" ... in LBB#4 (Mercenary) terms ... and will be POWs as long as the conflict continues and will almost certainly have a Repatriation Bond to get them home at the end of it.

Commerce Raiders that are not Privateers are, of course, regularly commissioned (if irregular) craft with regular naval crews who are, of course, also not able to be hung ... unless, of course, they commit "war crimes" ... the same caveat noted above re Interstellar Humanitarian Law (and successors to the Geneva/Hague conventions, whatever entitled) and its form also apply ...

Privateers and Commerce raiders also have at least one "side" of the conflict who provides basing and maintenance support and the opportunity to legally sell any prizes or cargo seized.

Why, they're even covered if they continue their activities beyond the date of official cessation of hostilities under certain limited and quite specific cirumstances (cf. the CSS "Shenandoah" for a specific example, or von Lettow-Vorbeck in WW1 for a peripheral sort of one).

Pirates, on the other hand, can be hung relatively readily, or treated as "unprivileged combatants" a la Guantanamo Bay.

I am sure that PCs would much rather be Privateers or Commerce Raiders than Pirates, on the whole.

YPCMMV, of course :wink:

That said, since, legally, the 3I claims all extra-planetary space within a system (and defining "within a system" could be an interesting legal problem ... within the Oort cloud, one presumes, but how to specifically define that would be an interesting conundrum ...) any acts of attack against a merchant (or other) space vessel would constitute Highway Robbery, as I noted, and robbery on the King's Highway was always a serious business.

The penalty for Highway Robbery was death by hanging (and this was also the penalty for Piracy).

A fine legal point, but a relevant one ... on such things do Barristers (or Trial Counsel to you 'merrkans out there :) ... ) make a pretty penny.

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au[/i][/b]
 
tneva82 said:
aspqrz said:
towerwarlock said:
Yes I do know the difference, and as far as the victims are concerned, THEY ARE ALL PIRACY!
Is it my fault their victims are legally illiterate? :wink:

Who cares about definitions that exists now when in future they could just as well be changed?

Besides claiming to control something you can't control doesn't really make it your jurisdiction...3I can't control everything in space so for all intents and purposes there's plenty of area without jurisdicial control.

Since piracy exists in OTU it's clear that the definition HAS changed in the future. So your claim regarding definition is moot point.

Who cares?

Lawyers?

And you can bet those parasi ... er ... valuable citizens will still be with us in the 3I ... for much the same reason ... at least in part to protect "innocent citizens" from the nasty and mean behaviour of all those vicious, lying, untrustworthy pi ... er ... security forces ... you just have to think in the right vein, that's all.

As for governments claiming jurisdiction where they can't enforce it ... you have an interesting and unique point of view ... governments certainly don't accept it!

As for Piracy in OTU. Well, Pirate ships certainly exist. But, offhand, I can't recall any specific statements in the rules as to the existence of Piracy within the 3I ... and, as has been noted, if one takes the layered on background as gospel, there's no way independent pirate states can have existed for the last 1100 years or Privateering and Commerce raiding not having expanded inevitably into a full scale war.

But, of course, it seems some people prefer only select parts of canon :wink:

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
 
aspqrz said:
Technically speaking, most of this will not be Piracy. In fact, very little of it will be.

It will be privateering or commerce raiding which is entirely, legally and practically, different.

Is there anyone out there who needs the differences explained to them?

that seems a matter of semantics to me as most players only care about the final result...innocent traders getting attacked without provocation. It doesn't matter what its called. The end result is the same.

Also...if privateering is happening, or commerce raiding done for political reasons, then there might very well be a couple of shady individuals who might slip in and do an act of piracy for personal gain for themselves.

As for what the act is actually called in technical terms...that's for the courts to worry about.
 
Ishmael said:
As for what the act is actually called in technical terms...that's for the courts to worry about.

Indeed. And if they're PCs before said courts they'll be claiming it was Privateering (or, possibly "all a big misunderstanding, m'Lud") ... unless they want to be hung?

My PCs don't, generally.

YMMV :)

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
 
Zowy said:
I can feel my hairs spliting :shock:

On such hairsplits do many an acquittal hinge :twisted:

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
 
Funny we had this very discussion in our game last week. One of the players put it succently...

"Yes, there is an abundance of resources. But, there are always those who want a bigger share of the pie, hence, the turn toward the illegal and illicit - the easy way."

Yes, there are IN patrols and SDBs but space is huge. By the time the Navy gets to respond to many distress calls, a ship can far away or even nearby. Anyone fancy the task of scanning a Jupiter sized planet...

IMTU, also, many worlds offer havens for fenced goods especially if the TL is higher hence the supply of lux. goods is always kept in demand. Plus, pirates are not stupid, they will go after the lone ship sparcely protected like the PCs ship not the megacorp liner unless they are exceptionally well organized or funded (trade war, anyone)...
 
Yes space is huge and so is the number of planets one can trade at. How many pirate attacks (or highway robbery in ships if you prefer) happen before merchies shun a particular planet? Or subsecter? Or even sector?

The system in question was a definate reason to defend its space.If they dont, they soon will have no need to. There are simply to many other places to go.

The current version in the RW dont show us much. It would be an air/raft with a rocket launcher going after a free trader. Only the FT has most likely two armed turrets just for that reason. The ship probably doesnt even go to general quarters. The crew throws dice, or cuts cards to see who gets to go and play squash the flys.
 
Hi,

Just a couple comments/thoughts.

1) Technically as punishment, I believe the correct term is that a prisoner is "hanged" not "hung".

2) Although the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), currently defines piracy as attacks that take place on the high
seas between two (or more) ships (and or an aircrat), I believe that this is not a universal definition. Specifically, the RAND Corporation report I referenced earlier (which can be found here (http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/2008/RAND_MG697.pdf) uses a definition from the International Maritime Bureau (IMB) which includes attacks within territorial waters, and or attacks shoreside etc. Additionally, in the next 37-odd centuries in which Traveller takes place it wouldn't surprise me if the definition of piracy is further refined to better relate to the specifics of the star faring economies assumed within the game.

3) The RAND report I mentioned above notes 7 factors "Accounting for the Emergence of Piracy in the Contemporary Era" including such things as "the lingering effects of the Asian financial crisis" which "exert[ed] a stronger “pull factor” on piracy—with more people (including
members of the security forces) drawn to maritime and other crime" but also "deprived many littoral states of the necessary revenue to fund
effective monitoring regimes over their coastlines". And, "corruption and emergent voids of judicial prerogative have encouraged official complicity in high-level pirate rings, which has impacted directly on the “phantom ship” phenomenon" where "The phantom ship phenomenon involves the outright hijacking of oceangoing vessels and their reregistration under flags of convenience for the purposes of illicit trade".

4) A review of stuff readily available on the internet shows that many times Privateers exceeded the bounds of their letters of marque and sometimes after a war was over some privateers resorted to piracy.

5) Wikipedia also makes some references to other recent acts of piracy such as "following the US withdrawal from Vietnam, Thai piracy was aimed at the many Vietnamese who took to boats to escape" etc, suggestiing that during times of turmoil piracy may increase.

As such, it would seem that during periods such as the 5th Frontier War, the Rebellion, or other periods of turmoil, I could easily see how some privateers could easily exceed the bounds of their letters of marque and become pirates, how some people might prey on the choas caused when a planet or closeby system was invaded or evacuated, and some nefarious groups might exploit the fact that as warships, troops and resources are withdrawn to the front to fight the war, fewer patrol boats and such would remian in rear areas to prevent acts of piracy against local shipping, etc, and finally once the war is over, it would also seem likely that some former privateers may not be willing to cease their operations (for whatever reasons).

Anyway, just some thoughts.

Regards

PF
 
PFVA63 said:
Hi,

Just a couple comments/thoughts.

1) Technically as punishment, I believe the correct term is that a prisoner is "hanged" not "hung".
Not even in the US.

I don't have my big Macquarie Dictionary handy, it's at work, but according to the Merriam-Webster Law Dictionary ...

Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law
Main Entry: hang
Function: verb
Inflected Forms: hung also hanged; hang·ing
transitive verb : to suspend by the neck until dead esp. as a form of execution — often hanged in the past tense intransitive verb 1 : to die by hanging — often hanged in the past tense <he hanged for his crimes>\

"Often" is not always. And, of course, in Australian English, as I have cause to know from a recent argument, according to the Macquarie Dictionary, hung is preferred.

The Merriam-Webster online Dictionary has a note on usage that states "For both transitive and intransitive senses 1b the past and past participle hung, as well as hanged, is standard. Hanged is most appropriate for official executions <he was to be hanged, cut down whilst still alive…and his bowels torn out — Louis Allen> but hung is also used <gave orders that she should be hung— Peter Quennell>. Hung is more appropriate for less formal hangings <by morning I'll be hung in effigy — Ronald Reagan>.

"but hung is also used"

AFAIK the Merriam-Webster is well regarded as a standard US Dictionary ... so, it seems, hung is fine ... and, as I noted, in Australian English (which I speak ... I have no idea, offhand, what the usage is in the UK, I would generally expect their usage to be closer to ours, rather than US usage) "hung" is generally preferred.

Remember, Mongoose is a UK company and, in any case, its posters are often not Americans, so assuming US usage (whether you, yourself, are american or not or merely influenced by too much US TV ... I must admit that I tend to use some americanisms in spelling, rather than correct australian/uk usage, so I am no more innocent than anyone) is "correct" is ... unwise ...

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
 
PFVA63 said:
Although the 1982 UN Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS), currently defines piracy as attacks that take place on the high seas between two (or more) ships (and or an aircrat), I believe that this is not a universal definition. Specifically, the RAND Corporation report I referenced earlier (which can be found here (http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/2008/RAND_MG697.pdf) uses a definition from the International Maritime Bureau (IMB) which includes attacks within territorial waters, and or attacks shoreside etc.

And, in court, the IMB/Rand definition would ... be irrelevant.

The UNCLOS is International Law and would prevail.

Unless, of course, the President/Emperor decided to reinterpret plain language to mean something it actually and obviously doesn't ... always a possibility as we have seen in the last decade.

Which is where the lawyers come in, as we have also seen in the last decade, and very recently. Governments rarely like lawyers (the ones that don't work for it, anyway) for this reason.

In the 3I we can assume the same tensions exist.

As for the passage of many centuries and changing definitions, well, there would have to be a reason for it ... and there seems to be none because of the 3I's claim off all space beyond planetary orbit.

Phil

Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon;
Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Email: aspqrz@pacific.net.au
 
"In modern English hang has two past tense and past participle forms: hanged and hung. Sometime after the 16th century hung replaced the earlier form hanged in general contexts, as in they hung out the washing, while hanged was, as it still is, retained for use in reference to execution by hanging, as in the prisoner was hanged."

From the OED.

http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/hang?view=uk

In British English, the correct form is only hanged. Not that newsreaders and tv script writers or print journalists seem to know this. Tis vexing.... :twisted:
 
In america hung has a very different meaning that has nothing to do with punishment, and is probably not aprpriate for this forum. Which is why some of us avoid useing it.
 
Well actually, the fates of the pirates, privateers, and commerce raiders all depends on whether or not the criminals are actually able to survive to come to trial. "What do you mean, they were shot trying to escape?"
"Yes sir, they were shot out of the airlock without spacesuits. We did not feel they were worth bothering to bring to trial. After all the evidence clearly indicated their guilt. Look at the money we saved the taxpayers having to pay their lawyers to get them off."

"I think that will not be much of an issue, since you spaced their lawyers along with the criminals."

"Sir, those crooks all look alike to me. The lawyers only tried to serve us with a restraining order against spacing them and their employers, as we stuffed them in the airlock. I figure the lawyers are guilty by association and accessory after the fact, so it saved the cost of trying them too."
 
Klaus Kipling said:
In British English, the correct form is only hanged. Not that newsreaders and tv script writers or print journalists seem to know this. Tis vexing.... :twisted:

zozotroll said:
In america hung has a very different meaning that has nothing to do with punishment

Hi,

This is how my college English professor explained it to me.

aspqrz said:
And, in court, the IMB/Rand definition would ... be irrelevant.

The UNCLOS is International Law and would prevail.

With respect to the definition of piracy, the 1982 UNCLOS definition is a bit more complex than I previously referenced. Specifically, the text of the document, as found on the internet here (http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_agreements/convention_overview_convention.htm) indicates that:

Article 100 - Duty to cooperate in the repression of piracy

All States shall cooperate to the fullest possible extent in the repression of piracy on the high seas or in any other place outside the jurisdiction of any State.

Article 101 - Definition of piracy

Piracy consists of any of the following acts:

(a) any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:
(i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft;
(ii) against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any State;
(b) any act of voluntary participation in the operation of a ship or of an aircraft with knowledge of facts making it a pirate ship or aircraft;
(c) any act of inciting or of intentionally facilitating an act described in subparagraph (a) or (b).

Article 102 - Piracy by a warship, government ship or government aircraft whose crew has mutinied

The acts of piracy, as defined in article 101, committed by a warship, government ship or government aircraft whose crew has mutinied and taken control of the ship or aircraft are assimilated to acts committed by a private ship or aircraft.

Article 103 - Definition of a pirate ship or aircraft

A ship or aircraft is considered a pirate ship or aircraft if it is intended by the persons in dominant control to be used for the purpose of committing one of the acts referred to in article 101. The same applies if the ship or aircraft has been used to commit any such act, so long as it remains under the control of the persons guilty of that act.

Article 104 - Retention or loss of the nationality of a pirate ship or aircraft

A ship or aircraft may retain its nationality although it has become a pirate ship or aircraft. The retention or loss of nationality is determined by the law of the State from which such nationality was derived.

Article 105 - Seizure of a pirate ship or aircraft

On the high seas, or in any other place outside the jurisdiction of any State, every State may seize a pirate ship or aircraft, or a ship or aircraft taken by piracy and under the control of pirates, and arrest the persons and seize the property on board. The courts of the State which carried out the seizure may decide upon the penalties to be imposed, and may also determine the action to be taken with regard to the ships, aircraft or property, subject to the rights of third parties acting in good faith.

Article 106 - Liability for seizure without adequate grounds

Where the seizure of a ship or aircraft on suspicion of piracy has been effected without adequate grounds, the State making the seizure shall be liable to the State the nationality of which is possessed by the ship or aircraft for any loss or damage caused by the seizure.

Article 107 - Ships and aircraft which are entitled to seize on account of piracy A seizure on account of piracy may be carried out only by warships or military aircraft, or other ships or aircraft clearly marked and identifiable as being on government service and authorized to that effect.

Anyway, the stuff above (particularly Article 101) suggests alot of potential things that would be considered piracy beyind just trying to capture a ship or cargo for money.

I suspect that a big issue with the UNCLOS definition of piracy (and as I understand it - one major difference in it and the RAND/IMB definition) revolves around the reference to its occuring "on the high seas" or "outside the jurisdiction of any State", however since "high seas" do not exist in Traveller in outer space, I would suspect that this would definitiely be an areas where the definition of piracy would likely evolve over the next 37 centuries.

Regards

PF
 
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