help needed with homebrewing languages

[tarkhan bey]

It is possible that when the 2edit comes out that it will deal with the ability to speak in different tongues in a more realistic way.
Just in case it doesnt though,I am attempting to homebrew a set of rules of my own for languages.
I am thinking that language points should be awarded to characters in much the same way as skill points are ie;varied based on class and intelligence.
I have considered taking a stance that language abilities are basically available at several levels. These range from simple communication through the knowledge of a few words and copious gesturing at the lowest level through to the ability to discuss and comprehend abstract concepts at the uppermost level.(At the moment I am working on 4 levels of language proficiency.)
I have been thinking that Scholars would of course be better at languages than most of the other classes. Nobles would be another possibility.
The idea is that all characters start with their native tongue at Rank3.
Scholars also recieve a secondary language at Rank3 and a Tertiary language at Rank2.
Nobles recieve a secondary language at Rank2.
All characters recieve a single rank per level in languages as well as their intelligence modifier.(Scholars recieve 2ranks per level)
Here is a character at several different levels to hopefully explain what I mean.

Vilerus-Aquilonian Soldier lvl1 int-13(+1)
Vilerus recieves the ability to speak his native language at Rank3 which is fluent in basic everyday concepts.
At level 1 he recieves 1 rank for his class and 1 rank for his intelligence
The character concept has Vilerus starting out as a deserter from a fort on the Nemedian border. It is reasonable for him to have learned a little Nemedian during his sojourn at the fort and so he decides to place both ranks into this language. With Rank2 Nemedian, Vilerus has a fair grasp of this particular foreign tongue.
At 2nd level Vilerus recieves another language rank for his class and a further one for his intelligence.
Hiding out in the Westermark, Vilerus has found himself in contact with the picts. He has picked up a little of their tongue and takes Rank1 in it. His squad sergeant is Cletarus, a Nemedian mercenary. Through his contact with this character he becomes fluent in Nemedian at Rank3 and has spent both his points.
At 3rd level, Vilerus past has come back to haunt him. The Nobleman who caused his desertion in the first place has been given command of his new post. Forced to desert again,he flees across the Thunder river and is promptly captured by Picts. By the whim of the gods he finds himself accepted as a part of their tribe and develops a fair grasp of their tongue at Rank2. While dwelling amongst the picts he also develops a very basic knowledge of the language of the Talking Drum at Rank1.
Vilerus-Lvl3 Soldier-Speak Aquilonian Rank3, Speak Nemedian Rank3, Speak Pictish Dialect Rank2, Understand Talking Drum Rank1.

Tekhnamun- Stygian scholar Lvl1 int 17(+3)

Tekhnamun recieves his native tongue at Rank3 which is fluent.
As a Scholar he also recieves a secondary tongue at Rank3. He chooses Shemitish.
He knows a third language at Rank2 and decides to take Acheronian.
He recieves 2 language ranks at first level as well as 3 ranks for his huge intellect. He elects to put one of these into Stygian, meaning that he is now Rank4 Stygian and capable of discussing abstracts and concepts.(Very useful for a scholar)
This leaves him with four more ranks. His character concept has him living in the occupied city of Zamboula and so he decides to put three of these into Hyrkanian.
The final point he decides to spend on Demonic.

Tekhnamun-Lvl1 Scholar, Speak Stygian Rank4, Speak Shemitish Rank3, Speak Hyrkanian Rank3,Speak Acheronian Rank2 and Speak Demonic Rank1.

I have a few questions for you guys.
1) Should there be more or less than three ranks to each individual language?
2) How should literacy tie into this?
3)I have been thinking that all characters should be considered illiterate except for Scholars who recieve an automatic literacy in any language they know at Rank2 or above at first level. Should I also include nobles from a civilized background or only if they have a positive intelligence modifier?
4) Should there be DC rolls for languages and if so how often?

I would appreciate any advice or ideas.

 

[argo]

Not to sound too negative, but ask yourself how do you expect this to improve actual gameplay? Because if it doesn't then it is a lot of extra work for nothing.

My last campaign I did somethng similar to what you propose, having different graded levels of language ability and players got +1 point at every level instead of every odd level. And you know what? It added nothing to actual play on game night.

So now I'm back to by-the-book language skills where players instantly become fluent in a language. Works better that way IMHO.

Hope that helps.

 

[tarkhan bey]

Thanks for your input Argo. I do appreciate that you have attempted something similar before and that you have returned to the language system as presented in the book.
However, this is something that I am going to have to find out for myself.
Contrary to your experience, I hope that what I am working with will most definately bring new roleplaying opportunities to the gaming table. The comedy(and tragedy) of errors as well as the dreaded "Khitaian whispers" phenomenon being the most obvious.
Although it appears quite convoluted in the previous post it is really a quite simple concept and the idea was never to get social interaction bogged down.
A simple intelligence check at a a set DC at the start of a conversation would determine whether the character could understand what was being said to him. A roll of 1 is as always a failure and if followed up by a second roll of 1 it means that you have completely misconstrued what is being said or have accidentally offended the other person or believe you have been insulted by them.
Also,persons who have Rank3 or above in the language are considered to be fluent and do not have to make a roll except at the Gm's discretion.
Anyway,I do appreciate your opinion Argo. I would however still ask readers for their thoughts on the questions I asked above.
Cheers

 

[arnon]

Midnight has something like what you propose here tarkhan.

Languages have 4 ranks: None, Pidgin, Basic, and Fluent. Knowing a language in anything but Fluent imparts penalties on communication:

None: -30 on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Info, and Sense Motive; -5 on Intimidate.

Pidgin: -5 on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Info, and Sense Motive; -2 on Intimidate.

Basic: -2 on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Info, and Sense Motive.

A character starts with Fluency in all automatic languages and at character creation gains 2xINT mod skill points that have to be distributed among bonus languages. From 2nd level onward investing 1 skill point per rank in language, and no jumping two ranks in a single language in one level... after all, it takes time to master a language.

Also, in Midnight all characters start illiterate. Gaining literacy cost to skill points, at which point you gain literacy at your language competence bonus (which improves automatically with the language competence).

--------------------

In Conan, where characters usually know more languages, you might want to give them more initially skill points (3xINT mod?), or perhaps 1 extra skill point specifically for ranks in languages every 2 levels perhaps...

I'm about to start a short Skull & Bones campaign and decided to use almost the same system as in Midnight, but taking out the Pidgin rank and thus in effect having only None, Basic and Fluent levels in languages... and again characters have to learn how to read and write.

Hope that was helpful.

arnon

 

[Aelric]

What would your char. sheets look like? I liek the idea you have posted and they kinda go in with what I do as everyone except for scholars and nobles are illiterate.

 

[tarkhan bey]

Aelric- The character sheet would remain the same. Instead of simply ticking the languages just start up a five bar gate beside them(the fourth bar would represent literacy in that language and the fifth bar would be advanced knowledge of the language(circumnavigate instead of sail around the globe).

Arnon- Thanks for the info about how the midnight system works. It is very interesting although I am not sure if I want just as many rolls involved.

What I have come up with is that a language has five levels.
Rank 1) Very basic and represents a few words and stock phrases with a lot of gesturing. Requires a language roll with Dc10 to get across your meaning in all but the simplest of statements. The roll is D20 + Wis Modifier and is used as often as the GM deems appropriate.

Rank 2) Basic, most problems are due to mispronunciation or inflection. This requires a Dc10 language roll to converse in every day terms. The roll is D20 + Wis Modifier +Int Modifier and should only be used once, at the start of any conversation or at the GM's discretion.

Rank 3) Fluent, the character can converse normally,like a native in every day matters. No roll is normally required but at the GM's discretion a Dc20 roll can be made to understand the advanced concepts which are covered in rank 5.

Rank 4) Literate,the character can read and write. A decipher script roll may be required at the GM's discretion if reading languages which are ancient or arcane.

Rank 5) Advanced, highbrow concepts, abstract notions and big words are the order of the day. You are also able to spell these words and able to scribe them for others to study. Once again, at this level any rolls are at the discretion of the Gm.

Having rethought this a little it seems that my original description of the Stygian's starting languages are a little out. His rank 4 in Stygian only grants him literacy and not conceptualization.
Have decided then that all Scholar's start out with Rank 4 literacy in their own language.
All others are illiterate unless they spend their points to make themselves otherwise.
A special case could be made for Nobles from civilized realms also, however I am inclined to see Hyborian age nobles as more interested in the whole hunting, fighting and carousing thing. Scholarly nobles are best represented by Scholar's with the Noble Blood feat from Scrolls of Skelos.
What do you think?

 

[tarkhan bey]

Have also been thinking that a roll of 1 on the D20 roll is a potential fumble.
The character must roll again. If a second roll fails to meet the set Dc then the character has deeply insulted the person that they are speaking to without realizing it or they say something completely contrary to what they believe they are saying.(50/50 chance...?)
If the second roll is successful it means that the person you are speaking to simply cannot understand you and either wanders off or stands looking at you with a bemused expression.

 

[arnon]

What would your char. sheets look like? I like the idea you have posted and they kinda go in with what I do as everyone except for scholars and nobles are illiterate.

Just the same.

Next to the language name there will be a parenthesis with the number of the language rank, no parenthesis means fluent. An astrix after the name mean literate.

For example: Aquilonian*, Cimmerian(1), Old Stygian(2)*

Thanks for the info about how the midnight system works. It is very interesting although I am not sure if I want just as many rolls involved.

I'm not sure what rolls you mean. The only rolls are the normal Charisma based rolls (bluff, diplomacy, etc.) that the characters make anyway.

 

[tarkhan bey]

Arnon-You are absolutely right. The rolls are the standard rolls as carried out by the characters during the course of gaming.Slight case of over enthusiasm on my part,you know. Had the ball and was running with it.
I tend to run my games fast and loose and generally try to avoid the gather info skill(except as a last resort). If a character asks the right questions from the right people I generally go along with it, unless it suits the story to misinform or be difficult.
Now that I have re read your post though, I do see where and how the modifiers should be applied.
I will definately apply a variation of this at the end of my homebrew. At the minute though I am just looking at general communication in non native tongues.
Thanks for your input.