Gauntlets...the most unbalanced melee weapon of them all?

[Andronicus]

Dear Barbarian Hordes and Fell Sorcerors

I want to start off, by just noting that I am a big Conan fan and this RPG is totally awesome. I thoroughly approve in many ways, and the group I play with loves it. Unfortunately, these guys are so intense and inventive, I keep coming across....little holes in the rules.

Lets us consider the humble gauntlet. To the untrained eye, it seems to be nothing more than a glorified set of brass knuckles. I say the game implications of this device have been overlooked.

There are two Feats to bear in mind here. Brawl allows you to do 1d6 +STR points of damage with your fists or feet and you can switch between subdual and lethal at will. You are not considered proficient with your hands, and so cannot make attacks of opportunity and invite them when you attack with your hands.

Improved Unarmed Combat makes you proficient with your hands and feet. You can make attacks of opportunity and don't suffer them when you attack unarmed. You damage is still only 1d3 +STR subdual.

The gauntlet counts as a simple weapon, so you can make attacks with your fist at no penalty, including attacks of opportunity. You do 1d6 +STR lethal damage and get a point of Armor Peircing!

Why bother to get two whole Feats, when you can shell out 5 silver for a gauntlet (or free if you get the right armor)? Unless you are planning to get some of the Feats in the Unarmed Tree, there's almost no point in getting Brawl and Unarmed Combat if you think you're going to have a gauntlets around.

There are some consolations. You can loose your gauntlet, and you can't switch to sub dual. But this seems suspisciously unbalanced to me.

Can I get a rules check?

 

[Yogah of Yag]

You are not considered proficient with your hands, and so cannot make attacks of opportunity and invite them when you attack with your hands.

Welcome.
That idea seems peculiar, does it not?
The first thing a martial person needs is to be proficient with the hands.

 

[Trodax]

...there's almost no point in getting Brawl and Unarmed Combat if you think you're going to have a gauntlets around.

This is the thing; you can be separated from a gauntlet easier than your fist. Many of the Conan stories start out with "you're in a prison cell, and you have nothing but a loincloth" and if the GM start his games out like this from time to time (I know I do), then Brawl and Improved Unarmed Strike will come in real handy.

I mean, if you follow your argument through, why stop at getting a gauntlet? For 5 sp you might as well get a battleaxe (every class in the game except the Scholar is proficient with it) which does a heck of a lot more damage. I can't really see how a gauntlet is more unbalanced than any other weapon.

 

[Ashigaru]

The gauntlet counts as a simple weapon, so you can make attacks with your fist at no penalty, including attacks of opportunity. You do 1d6 +STR lethal damage and get a point of Armor Peircing!

From the SRD:

Gauntlet

This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets.

Unless specific changes have been made to the Conan version of the OGL rules, all gauntlets get you is an upgrade in damage from subdual to lethal. Even with gauntlets equipped you're still making an unarmed attack, though, which means you *take* Attacks of Opportunity and are unable to *make* them yourself.

 

[Andronicus]

Unless specific changes have been made to the Conan version of the OGL rules, all gauntlets get you is an upgrade in damage from subdual to lethal. Even with gauntlets equipped you're still making an unarmed attack, though, which means you *take* Attacks of Opportunity and are unable to *make* them yourself.[/quote]

Thanks for the clarification friend, but checking out the standard OGL rules and comparing them to the Conan, does reveal differences. Firstly, seems that there is no armor peircing in standard OGL (and presumably armor doesn't provide damage reduction). Small but critical difference. And the Conan gauntlet does increase the damage to 1d6.

I guess I'm mostly confused by the fact that Unarmed Attacks are lumped under Simple Weapons, implying proficiency. Ah, well. Thanks bunches, I think I got it figured out now.

 

[jadrax]

Its worth noteing that Conan has changed a lot from the OGL rules!

 

[argo]

Why bother to get two whole Feats, when you can shell out 5 silver for a gauntlet (or free if you get the right armor)? Unless you are planning to get some of the Feats in the Unarmed Tree, there's almost no point in getting Brawl and Unarmed Combat if you think you're going to have a gauntlets around.

Actually, yea getting the other feats in the unarmed tree really is the entire point. If you character concept is "martial artist" then you want Improved Grapple and Crushing Grip. Those are the feats that really give you Conan's ability to just snap people's necks left and right. Just doing nothing more than grabbing a pair of gauntlets and going off to war aint gonna get you very far.

I mean, as far as choosing a primary weapon goes... guantlets suck 1d6 20/x2 and AP1, hell for the same 5 sp you can get a battleaxe with far better stats or, nuts, even the club is better and it is free. Gauntlets are strictly a back-up weapon. So that when that Corinthian mercenary sunders your broadsword you can still punch him in the face instead of running away like a sissy.

Balanced.

 

[slaughterj]

The gauntlet counts as a simple weapon, so you can make attacks with your fist at no penalty, including attacks of opportunity. You do 1d6 +STR lethal damage and get a point of Armor Peircing!

From the SRD:

Gauntlet

This metal glove lets you deal lethal damage rather than nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes. A strike with a gauntlet is otherwise considered an unarmed attack. The cost and weight given are for a single gauntlet. Medium and heavy armors (except breastplate) come with gauntlets.

Unless specific changes have been made to the Conan version of the OGL rules, all gauntlets get you is an upgrade in damage from subdual to lethal. Even with gauntlets equipped you're still making an unarmed attack, though, which means you *take* Attacks of Opportunity and are unable to *make* them yourself.

That looks to be a good point to include in a FAQ...

 

[Andronicus]

Okay everyone, in my defense I never suggested that someone should slap on a pair of gauntlets instead of using a proper weapon. :roll:

I was mostly trying to figure how to adjucate their use rules wise. Only a sociopath or a moron would actually try to supplant real weapons with gauntlets. On second thought, given that this is Conan I'm sure at least some of you have players crazy enough to give it a shot. :lol:

I suppose if you sank the right Feats into it, you could develope a fighting style around gauntlets. Just look at the Brawler from Hyboria's Finest. Or go monk with Oriental magic. But that's a whole different thread.

 

[Sutek]

I guess I'm mostly confused by the fact that Unarmed Attacks are lumped under Simple Weapons, implying proficiency. Ah, well. Thanks bunches, I think I got it figured out now.

Well, firstly, Unarmed Strikes are Simple Weapons to grant proficiency. Improved Unarmed Strike doesn't do that, provide prificiency that is. IUS negates opponents' making AOOs against you when you throw a punch/kick/knee.

Secondly, Gaultlets are listed in the Simple Weapons group chart as being "Unarmed Attacks" along with "Strike, unarmed". So it's not even listed as a weapon. It still counts as an unarmed strike (as Ashigaru pointed out, even without consulting the SRD) but conferring all the cool Gauntlet perks (lethal and increased damage, AP and a degree of hardness and HP). 8)

Third, the Brawl feat allows you to deal either lethal or non-lethal damage as a stike option when you are trying ot hit someone, but if you're wearing Gauntlets, it's always going to be lethal. You have to ask yourself: Do you want to go to jail in some back-water town for fighting or for murder!? :shock:

And fourth, suppose your Gauntleted hands are bound behind your back and you can't break loose of the bonds. If you don't have those Unarmed tree feats anyway to use with kicks and knees and head-butts, a pair of gauntlets aren't going to do you much good, now are they? :wink: