Gap in the market

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

There seems to be a big leap between the trusty TL6 autopistol, and the equally trusty TL13 gauss pistol.

Odd considering that in the interim the Advanced Combat Rifle, using more efficient propellant, becomes available at TL10.

So, how about an Advanced Combat Pistol, damage 3d6-3, recoil 0, capable of autofire 4, and with a 20 round magazine, mass 0.5 kg, costing 400Cr with an ammo cost of 10cr per mag. Visually, looking pretty much the same as a modern 9mm, but firing better ammo that enables the same impact as the current 9mm to be achieved with a lighter round (hence 20 round mag). Basically, not as good as a gauss pistol, but a bit better than the standard 9mm.

Any thoughts? I can't find anything similar amongst the numerous variations on the autopistol in CSC, but please don't hesitate to point it out to me if I have missed it!

Egil

Edit for clarity

 

[zero]

Dont have the CSC, but I agree with your points, all players I have experienced have made the fair point that the Gauss pistol is a great weapon, doing more damage than all other pistols but cheaper than the more effective rifles, especially at char gen when you have a 2k cred limit for gear.
Ive also seen a prevalence of Gauss pistols being used with laser sights too.

 

[DFW]

What mechanism are you using for zero recoil?

 

[zero]

^ Pretty sure coil weapons are possible in our TL of 7-8 so a less advanced version of the Gauss pistol or a prototype would have the zero recoil, right?

 

[barnest2]

^ Pretty sure coil weapons are possible in our TL of 7-8 so a less advanced version of the Gauss pistol or a prototype would have the zero recoil, right?

Why, when current coil weapons have plenty of recoil?

 

[DFW]

^ Pretty sure coil weapons are possible in our TL of 7-8 so a less advanced version of the Gauss pistol or a prototype would have the zero recoil, right?

No, it all depends on the method. Some things aren't scalable enough. For instance the .50 sniper rifle uses the propellant exhaust as it comes out the muzzle and redirects it backwards (Newtons Third law). This is possible because the muzzle is far enough from the user. So, it all depends...

 

[far-trader]

Nope. Frustratingly the recoil issue as respects gauss type weapons was explained on these forums a long way back. And Mongoose still went ahead and promoted the fallacy that gauss weapons have no recoil. The fact is a gauss weapon as described will have the same or greater felt recoil as any chemically propelled round. It's a common mistaken belief that gauss weapons have no recoil.

Felt recoil can be reduced, even practically eliminated in a CPR gun by use of the exhaust gasses themselves. A gauss weapon doesn't have that.

Felt recoil can also be reduced by the weight of the weapon. Handguns, especially the ligther ones, don't have that advantage, nor can they effectively use the exhaust gasses to as great a degree. That's why they generally fire lower power rounds.

Perhaps Mongoose included some magic gravity compensation to reduce recoil in the gauss weapons, but that should be clearly stated so a proper comparison can be made.

 

[far-trader]

Anyway, to the original idea...

Lighter rounds will be lower power and felt recoil will be less. And damage (for game purposes) will also be less. Not significantly so imo.

More efficient rounds will allow more power in the same package and felt recoil will be more. And damage will also be more. And again not significantly so imo.

If you want more damage from a pistol, you have to accept more recoil. If you want to reduce recoil you have to accept less damage, or come up with another method of reducing the recoil (a heavier weapon or grav module driven recoil damper for example).

What really fills the gap you're wondering about? In my opinion a laser pistol. True zero recoil depending on how it is powered and significantly more damage than a conventional handgun.

 

[DFW]

And Mongoose still went ahead and promoted the fallacy that gauss weapons have no recoil. The fact is a gauss weapon as described will have the same or greater felt recoil as any chemically propelled round. It's a common mistaken belief that gauss weapons have no recoil.

Yep and, based on the mass & velocity of the gauss round, it probably has MUCH higher recoil than a regular side arm.

 

[Burocrate]

(Gun Bunny mode activated)

As a model for a TL 7-8 Advanced Combat Pistol I would recommend the FN Five-seveN pistol. The weapon uses a unique 5.7mm x 28mm pistol round which is a departure from the standard 9mm Auto Pistol round or even the 10mm Heavy Auto Pistol round found in various Traveller rule sets. As mentioned, recoil is nearly impossible to eliminate, however this weapon claims to have substantially lower recoil than comparable hand guns. Reports of high penetration versus personal armor and a 20 round standard magazine make this an interesting choice for military, para military, local LEOs or your PCs. :shock:
Anyone feel like really stating-out this weapon?

http://www.fnhusa.com/le/products/firearms/family.asp?fid=FNF003&gid=FNG001&cid=FNC01[/url]

 

[DFW]

(Gun Bunny mode activated)

As a model for a TL 7-8 Advanced Combat Pistol I would recommend the FN Five-seveN pistol. ]

http://www.genitron.com/HandgunDB/DB-Handgun-Detail.asp?ID=1786

Actually, it isn't a good offensive weapon if you are looking at knock down killing power. A good weapon for the relatively untrained as a defensive weapon off the battlefield.

 

[apoc527]

(Gun Bunny mode activated)

As a model for a TL 7-8 Advanced Combat Pistol I would recommend the FN Five-seveN pistol. ]

http://www.genitron.com/HandgunDB/DB-Handgun-Detail.asp?ID=1786

Actually, it isn't a good offensive weapon if you are looking at knock down killing power. A good weapon for the relatively untrained as a defensive weapon off the battlefield.

What possible justification/evidence do you have for this statement? I ask because I'm curious...I'm not aware of any studies done with 5.7mm ammunition. The round is very fast and shaped like a rifle bullet. I'd expect it work at least as well as a 9mm with better armor penetration characteristics.

 

[apoc527]

Also, to far_trader, gauss guns in MGT aren't recoilless. They just have low felt recoil. A person with Str < 7 will have trouble with Recoil 0 weapons. In MGT, Recoil - is "recoilless". Only lasers get that, I believe.

As to reducing recoil, check out the Kriss SMG in .45 ACP.

 

[DFW]

What possible justification/evidence do you have for this statement? I ask because I'm curious

Figure its KE and compare.

 

[Burocrate]

(Gun Bunny mode activated)

As a model for a TL 7-8 Advanced Combat Pistol I would recommend the FN Five-seveN pistol. ]

http://www.genitron.com/HandgunDB/DB-Handgun-Detail.asp?ID=1786

Actually, it isn't a good offensive weapon if you are looking at knock down killing power. A good weapon for the relatively untrained as a defensive weapon off the battlefield.

DFW,
I hope this does not turn into a far-flung gun debate over the philosophies of pistol combat, but I do agree with you about stopping power. If I want one-shot incapacitation I would choose a large caliber revolver. I have always been a sucker for the .41 Magnum round myself. For an all purpose weapon, I would choose a reliable .40 caliber or 10mm semi-auto.
In Traveller, I have always leaned towards the Combat Snub Pistol due to the availability of different purpose rounds (Ball, Tranq, HE and HEAP) and the fact that it is intended for Zero-G operations.

p.s.: Thank you for the link, I wasted about an hour looking at all the pretty pictures and graphs.

 

[far-trader]

Also, to far_trader, gauss guns in MGT aren't recoilless. They just have low felt recoil. A person with Str < 7 will have trouble with Recoil 0 weapons. In MGT, Recoil - is "recoilless". Only lasers get that, I believe.

I could be recalling it wrong, my book isn't at hand to check, but I thought MgT Core had gauss weapons as a Recoil - # (meaning significantly less recoil than CPR guns). Or maybe CSC (don't have it) changed that.

 

[apoc527]

But that's relatively pointless. A .22 has poor KE but it is the most common killing round in many gang fights. A .25 "sucks" but has killed many people.

Firearm lethality, much to the chagrin of gearheads, can't be easily reduced to a series of equations, variables and constants. The FBI has tried for years and never come up with a suitable answer. I've shot many types of handguns and own a 9mm Glock. I have every confidence in that gun were I to need it.

The reality is that handguns (all guns really) are only as effective as the shooter's ability to hit vital areas. In other words, shot placement is key.

Merely calculating what a round's hypothetical KE is has little bearing on how that round will affect a target in a fight.

The people I've met who own Five-seveNs love 'EM for their large capacity and low felt recoil. That allows multiple, quick follow up shots with high accuracy. That is far more important than the KE number.

 

[apoc527]

Also, to far_trader, gauss guns in MGT aren't recoilless. They just have low felt recoil. A person with Str < 7 will have trouble with Recoil 0 weapons. In MGT, Recoil - is "recoilless". Only lasers get that, I believe.

I could be recalling it wrong, my book isn't at hand to check, but I thought MgT Core had gauss weapons as a Recoil - # (meaning significantly less recoil than CPR guns). Or maybe CSC (don't have it) changed that.

Recoil is 0 for the rifles, carbines, and Navy pistol. It's -1 for the Army model.

I would buy that, especially given that (again) much more goes into how a gun feels than the simple Newtonian equations defining momentum and energy. As you pointed out, weight of the weapon is hugely important, but I'd argue so is the method of propulsion. The theory, anyway, is that a smooth launch (as a gauss weapon could be by TL 13), would have more "push" and less "snap" than a modern firearm with a chemical explosive.

I see nothing inherently wrong with that assumption and indeed, have felt the difference myself, as minor as it is, between various kinds of guns today.

As long as they don't claim the guns are recoilless, I'm fine with it.

Also, the Kriss Super V mechanism I mentioned is just one example of mechanical reduction of recoil. Gauss weapons and ACRs could easily employ some kind of recoil reducing microfluidics system that mechanically counteracts the felt recoil even more than gas venting.

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

What mechanism are you using for zero recoil?

Assuming simple development from current autopistols (which also recoil at 0), essentially the performance of the round will be about the same as current 9mm, the advantage is that the rounds are smaller (so more in magazine) and that autofire is possible.

A development, not a revolution

Egil

(Ok, so I am handwaving a bit.)

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Felt recoil can be reduced, even practically eliminated in a CPR gun by use of the exhaust gasses themselves. A gauss weapon doesn't have that.

Felt recoil can also be reduced by the weight of the weapon. Handguns, especially the ligther ones, don't have that advantage, nor can they effectively use the exhaust gasses to as great a degree. That's why they generally fire lower power rounds.

And I am suggesting a round for the"advanced combat pistol" that is smaller than current 9mm, but more powerful, so the two factors cancel out, and we are left with similar performance (note the damage is the same as a TL6 autopistol), but lighter rounds allow more in each magazine.

Egil