Fuel and jumping

[Vormaerin]

My presumption is, based on Collectors, is that the hydrogen, or some of it, is transformed into exotic particles.

Definitely like this idea. I know the Annic Nova and its collectors grind the gears of some folks pretty hard, but I always like them and it is the least problematic of the problem jump techs.

 

[Vormaerin]

If fuel power goes thought the "power plant" to provide power to charge up the jump compactors then why the requirement of needing fuel to be from internal tanks and not a external tank like a balloon being deflated to be burned in the "power plant"? this would make the ship better suited for cargo transport since you don't have to jump with empty dead space every time.

That is the core problem. L-Hyd is the fuel because that's the official Sci Fi fuel of choice, despite a low volumetric energy density (it has high gravimetric energy density). Given that jump drives are volume based (where L-Hyd is weak) and not mass based (where L-Hyd is strong), it seems kind of a strange choice.

And if it is just a certain amount of energy needed, surely there's a more volume efficient way of providing that energy than L-Hydrogen. And I just lack the engineering creativity to imagine a power plant that can process 400 dtons of l-hyd in minutes when it normally operates on tens of dtons per week. I just wonder why you can't run the plant at higher power than standard at any other time.

As far as I am aware, Traveller uses volumetric measurements because that's easier for making maps with, presumably, some sort of "anti grav means mass isn't that important" factor.

 

[Condottiere]

If fuel power goes thought the "power plant" to provide power to charge up the jump compactors then why the requirement of needing fuel to be from internal tanks and not a external tank like a balloon being deflated to be burned in the "power plant"? this would make the ship better suited for cargo transport since you don't have to jump with empty dead space every time.

Drop tanks.

The issue is that you'd need replacements the next time you jump.

In theory, you could have the internal tanks flush the jump drive, while an external fuel bladder drains it's contents into the empty internal tanks, but the question is how long would this take, since any extra volume, or loss thereof, is going to mess with stability.

 

[Vormaerin]

Drop tanks are the worst. Large corporations *should* have networks of drop tanks & drop tank recovery vehicles along major trade lines so they can operate massively more efficient ships. Sure, the game says some 'it is risky' stuff, but the financial pay off is so huge that this problem would be solved in short order. Tramp ships and small liners probably can't afford it, but what else is new?

And clearly it's not *that* risky because they have entire ship classes using it and they had TAS reports about running lines based on drop tanks out to the Marches from the Core.

Edit: Though large starports might have companies that just consist of drop tanks and drop tank recovery vehicles for indie ships. I think the big boys would probably squeeze that line out of action, though, just like they do most of the rest of the big port action.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Drop tanks are the worst. Large corporations *should* have networks of drop tanks & drop tank recovery vehicles along major trade lines so they can operate massively more efficient ships. Sure, the game says some 'it is risky' stuff, but the financial pay off is so huge that this problem would be solved in short order. Tramp ships and small liners probably can't afford it, but what else is new?

Drop tanks are quite expensive, if destroyed every or every other jump. It's only profitable for high jump ships, IIRC J≥5 or so.

 

[Vormaerin]

Like I said, the payoff of not having hundreds or thousands of tons of cargo space wasted every trip would result in that problem getting fixed in short order. The technology is too valuable to leave in that experimental state.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Like I said, the payoff of not having hundreds or thousands of tons of cargo space wasted every trip would result in that problem getting fixed in short order. The technology is too valuable to leave in that experimental state.

Build the ship and try it out. I have.

 

[Vormaerin]

If you assume the drop tanks are blown up constantly, sure. But that's one of those "things that are said" that don't actually make sense. That would be a problem in development that would be solved or it wouldn't be implemented.

 

[Condottiere]

Ten percent of hull volume would be enough to destabilize the jump, so they would need sufficient push that they float away outside that influence area in about a minute or two.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Drop tanks are the worst. Large corporations *should* have networks of drop tanks & drop tank recovery vehicles along major trade lines so they can operate massively more efficient ships. Sure, the game says some 'it is risky' stuff, but the financial pay off is so huge that this problem would be solved in short order. Tramp ships and small liners probably can't afford it, but what else is new?

And clearly it's not *that* risky because they have entire ship classes using it and they had TAS reports about running lines based on drop tanks out to the Marches from the Core.

Edit: Though large starports might have companies that just consist of drop tanks and drop tank recovery vehicles for indie ships. I think the big boys would probably squeeze that line out of action, though, just like they do most of the rest of the big port action.

And such was in place in the core sectors of the Third Imperium and about to me moved into the Spinward Marches - see early GDW TAS News bulletins.
Drop tanks are destroyed when they are dropped.

If drop tanks are recoverable then tankers should be able to use long hoses to transfer fuel to a jump ship, thus removing the need for fuel tankage or drop tanks.

 

[Sigtrygg]

If you assume the drop tanks are blown up constantly, sure. But that's one of those "things that are said" that don't actually make sense. That would be a problem in development that would be solved or it wouldn't be implemented.

Not having drop tanks destroyed on use opens a can of worms that changes the Third Imperium setting.

 

[Condottiere]

The problem with the Collectors is that they were written as both a one off and against the backdrop of the lanthanum grid, so no jump bubble.

Becoming a viable alternative to jump fuel, it implies that the jump bubble is formed without the remains of the jump fuel, and that speculatively, only the filtered exotic particles are required to kickstart the jump drive.

 

[Condottiere]

Speaking of alternatives, since the Marc Miller states that you can use large fast discharge batteries instead of capacitors, I'd like to see them, since capacitors are the most expensive part of the jump dive.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The problem with the Collectors is that they were written as both a one off and against the backdrop of the lanthanum grid, so no jump bubble.

Becoming a viable alternative to jump fuel, it implies that the jump bubble is formed without the remains of the jump fuel, and that speculatively, only the filtered exotic particles are required to kickstart the jump drive.

There is no lanthanum grid unless you are playing MegaTraveller.

 

[Vormaerin]

There is no lanthanum grid unless you are playing MegaTraveller.

Or T5, which lets you use the jump grid. And describes its use in a way that would make the question of whether drop tanks get destroyed moot (ie they wouldn't).

Btw, my entire point is that Drop tanks are, by far, the most setting disruptive of the alternative jump drive techs dropped into the game. Once the concept was proved to work at all, there's no way the megas would not spend the time and money to make them reliable. Whether making them cheap enough to be disposable or the separation safe enough to make them recoverable. They are just a really bad idea.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

If you assume the drop tanks are blown up constantly, sure.

Yes, Traveller drop tanks.

But that's one of those "things that are said" that don't actually make sense. That would be a problem in development that would be solved or it wouldn't be implemented.

They are still plenty good enough for many use cases. You can play it however you want, but by the book they are destroyed more often than not when dropped.

 

[Vormaerin]

I just play that they don't exist because there's no way that they wouldn't radically alter the setting if they actually worked. And they wouldn't stay janky and expensively self-destructive indefinitely. And that's even if you don't use Megatraveller or T5 rules with hull contained jump grids that makes the "jump bubble destroys them frequently" cop-out fall apart.

 

[Spartan159]

If fuel power goes thought the "power plant" to provide power to charge up the jump compactors then why the requirement of needing fuel to be from internal tanks and not a external tank like a balloon being deflated to be burned in the "power plant"? this would make the ship better suited for cargo transport since you don't have to jump with empty dead space every time.

Actually this is an interesting idea, external fuel bladders that as they are emptied and pulled into a storage compartment at the deflated volume. Not usable for any kind of gas giant or on planet refueling, but orbital or tanker would work just fine.

Also very susceptible to damage from combat...

 

[Sigtrygg]

Or T5, which lets you use the jump grid. And describes its use in a way that would make the question of whether drop tanks get destroyed moot (ie they wouldn't).

Btw, my entire point is that Drop tanks are, by far, the most setting disruptive of the alternative jump drive techs dropped into the game. Once the concept was proved to work at all, there's no way the megas would not spend the time and money to make them reliable. Whether making them cheap enough to be disposable or the separation safe enough to make them recoverable. They are just a really bad idea.

The T5 hull grid is a network of cables of undefined material, as is stated in MWM's article. T5 uses lanthanum in the drive coils, not the hull network/grid.

And again I will mention that in the setting the megacorporations are doing exactly that in the core sectors and wish to expand this into the Spinward Marches, with local shipyards winning contracts to build the tanks. Many Marches "interest groups" appear to not want greater Imperial authority and megacorporation involvement.

Officials of the General Shipyards on Regina today announced that they have
completed negotiations with Tukera Lines to locally manufacture L-Hyd drop tanks
for use on high-capacity commercial vessels. The first production examples are
expected to be available within six months, at which time Tukera Lines will begin
high capacity service from the interior. Component assembly will be carried out at
General's more modern facilities on Pixie (0303-A100103-D).
L-Hyd drop ships have only been in service for the last dozen years in the
interior, being made possible by recent advances in the field of capacitor
engineering, a joint press release explained. Commercial vessels equipped with the
new generation of long-storage jump capacitors carry jump fuel in specially
designed L-Hyd drop tanks in excess of their rated tonnage. Upon conversion of the
fuel to the massive energy required for jump, the drop tanks are explosively
jettisoned through the use of break-away connections and explosive bolts. Jump is
executed when the remains of the tanks are a safe distance from the vessel.
A spokesman for General Shipyards explained that local yards are not yet
capable of manufacturing the long-storage capacitors required for the process, but
that production of the drop tanks is possible, thus allowing the high capacity
starships of the Tukera Lines to begin service to the Regina subsector.
L-Hyd drop tanks are not reusable, and thus increase the absolute cost per
jump. However, experience has shown that the increase in cargo tonnage resulting
from the elimination of internal J-fuel storage more than makes up for this, the
press release explained.
The joint press release concluded by stating that local manufacture of L-Hyd
drop tanks marked the dawn of a newsera of commerce and prosperity in the
Regina subsector. Following the announcement, common stock in Oberlindes Lines
plummeted 27 points on the Regina exchange before trading was suspended.
Officials of Oberlindes Lines were not available for comment.

Close on the heels of the joint announcement by General Shipyards and
Tukera Lines that L-Hyd drop tanks would soon be manufactured in the Regina
subsector, came word by express boat fromsthe Imperial core that a decision has
been made to deploy Jump-6 L-Hyd drop tank express boats on all major express
routes. Initial feasibility studies indicate that such a system could average jump5.5
per week by executing maximum jumps where possible, and leaving current xboat
units to disseminate information between the new major relay points. The system
is expected to cut communication time to the lmperial hub to under 25 weeks.
The Initial System Deployment Schedule indicates that the Regina subsector can
expect to be fully integrated into the network within a decade.

In later issues we would learn of "accidents" at the manufacturing yards and the destruction of a drop tank liner due to a "fault"

Sadly all of these lovely plot developments were stomped on by the FFW and we would never see drop tank merchants, jump 6 x boats, trade wars between local shipping lines (Oberlindes Lines) over the issue of drop tank merchants.

 

[Spartan159]

I would imagine in the sectors it's used in they would have tugs retrieving spent drop tanks for refurbishment/reuse.