Fleet lists, and how the new guy looks at them

[Zeru]

Hello all, as some of you may know, I am new to this game, as are my friends, and I thought I might share my thoughts over the fleets we have played so far, and some we have not.

Earth/Crusade Era: Only earth era I have actually looked at, and I must say they seem like a solid all around list, they have good ships at every level and enjoy a good variety in range as well.

Minbari: Seem like a very nasty fleet, but they rely very heavily on stealth, people who use E-mines, or have decent scouts would probably tear them up quickly, they seem to have the fighter war well in hand though.

Narn: Solid, Slow, have both very-short and very-long range guns. E-mines are slow but powerful, deals with pesky things like stealth, fighters, and dodge. They are also tough as nails, but are as slow as snails as well.

Centauri: A solid mid-range fleet, they also have an awesome escort in the form of the Maximus.
They also have a good spread of ships across all priority levels. The only real problem I see with this fleet is that they do not excel at anything in particular, so specialized fleets give them alot of trouble, I personally like them alot though.

ISA: The guys I have personally been playing, and the cause of much debate and grief among my friends (despite the fact I have yet to beat 2 of them). They are a great fleet, but seem very reliant on the dodge mechanic, which means E-mines and accurate weapons eat them for lunch. Fighters seem to be a problem as well, unless your willing to give up certain advantages of your fleet to field some anti-fighter, or dogfighters.

The White Star; although a great support ship, is about average on its own. I would always field at least one.
The White Star Gunship seems to not really be worth it, but I do like the 2 White Star Fighters it brings to the table. Would not field it, unless I felt I needed the White Star Fighters to run some dogfighting for me.
The White Star Carrier is a great buy all around, and in big games, I would always take one.
The Blue Star is probably the best buy in the fleet, short of using the Allied Fleets rule, these small Blue terrors seem to be what my friends fear the most. Accurate weapons and E-mines eat them alive, but not everyone has those, and weight of dice seems a counter-productive strategy against them. Fighter Swarms also get the job done (atleast I believe so) but overall, they seem way to good to be true.
I would probably never field more then 8 of these guys in a 5 point raid, but probably never field less then 4 either.

E-mines seem to be the catch all against these guys, but Accurate weapons are not far behind, and the fighter swarm forces them to field something to deal with fighters, or they are going to be stuck doing the very anti-productive job of shooting down fighters with their accurate weapons.

Abbai: In all honesty, I see almost any fleet giving them a hard time, their short range guns and shields are nice, but their speed and lack of straight-up damage weapons seem to be a severe handicap.

Brakiri: A race full of giant pill-boxes, they have longevity, and alot of it, they also have weight of dice with their short-medium range defense guns, AP is nice on those things as well, but most of their ships seem sub-par overall, but a few gems really shine in this fleet.
The Takata-class Mine Cruiser in particular is a great all-around ship, and worth every priority level of its war-class.
The Brokados-class Battle Carrier is pretty nice too.
The Cidikar-class Heavy Carrier also seems like fun.
I am a personal fan of the Halik-class Frigate as well.
Almost everything else appears sub-par though, which is kind of sad, because those gems really do shine.

Drazi: Charge the Line! seems to be the motto of these guys, I am not sure about how effective they are, but I love the fleet-list :lol:

Gaim: Energy mines, swarms of sacraficial fighters, and decent weapons all around. The only down-sides I can see immediatly, are slow and a small ship selection. I think these guys rank up high in my favorites.

Pak'ma'ra: Their -3 to intiative is a huge blow to this fleet, their durability with Redundant Systems is rather amazing, but I have yet to pass my final judgement on them.

Vree: Manueverable glass-cannons, these guys are another fleet I consider to be quite powerful. SM at half speed, Turrented weapons, and some great fighters, they are quite powerful, their Xaak-class Commander Saucer has done some amazing things in the two games I have seen it played in. Their Patrol level ships are quite amazing too.
Hell, I like almost all of their ships.

Vorlons: Durable, self-healing, no crew, auto-repairing critical hits, and alot of foward-arc hate. What is not to like? Well lack of a raid ship for one. Medium-slow speed for another, and the ease in which they are outmanuevered is painful, but they have to have a weakness somewhere, right?

Shadows: SM, Shields, and Incrediable Raid-class ship (that kicks me around), and a War and Armgeddon Ship that can potential spawn an unlimited number of fighters. What's not to like? No Skirmish level ship
Is one problem.
Their fighters also get kicked around by other fighters, alot.
Their non-raid ships also seem to lack the bite I would expect from their class, still nasty, but not what I would expect from them.
The Shadow Scout seems almost potential broken, but Beam dice have the potential to mess it up badly, with the Physical Disruption rule.

Drakh: These guys are pretty good all around, their energy grids help absorb damage, and their huge-hangers make most of their ships a great buy, they also have one of the best skirmish class ships in the game. Most of their stuff is rather slow though, and alot of their ships have low hull-scores. This fleet has alot of potential for greatness though.

Psi-Corps: A great fleet all around, their access to Crusade-Era earth ships promises that, but their fighters are incrediably DEADLY, I pity and fighter that comes across the Black Omega squadrons. A potential great fleet.


Overall: One of the things I have noticed is this; alot of fleets have obsolete ships. I know that they have different time Eras, but it is still rather annoying to notice that their are far better ships in the same priority level than the ones you just looked at a page before/after.

and there you have it; chalked full of my personal opinion, and probably has glaring holes in its analysis, but that is how I see those fleets so far. Feel free to comment or share your opinion over the many fleets of this game.

 

[Da Boss]

Hi most intersting and of course welcome to the madhouse

However one major thing - The Sahdow ship does not get to spawn unlimited ships - they get 2 and 6 respectively - thats it, no more no less in a game - - I think you may have misinterpreted the rules for the Dispersal tubes??

 

[Silvereye]

Overall: One of the things I have noticed is this; alot of fleets have obsolete ships. I know that they have different time Eras, but it is still rather annoying to notice that their are far better ships in the same priority level than the ones you just looked at a page before/after.

Hi and welcome to the forum.

One thing to note, that obsolete ships are not necessarily obsolete in some circumstances. This is a fleet game and what looks like an obsolete or underpowered or weak ship can play with the make up of how the fleet plays. Scouts in particular are pretty poor as a warship however they buff up the rest of the fleet. The gamble is usually is the buff worth the lack of another warship?

What ships in particular do you think are 'obsolete'?

 

[Zeru]

Interesting, that does take alot of punch out of those upper-tier shadow ships, my friend will think they are quite subpar now no doubt.

As for Obselete ships, ill pull out an example;

The Narn Bin'Tak-class Dreadnought is clearly inferior to the G'Vrahn-class Fast cruiser.

It is slower, less manueverable, has less flights, only slightly more Damage and crew, is lumbering, and its guns are shorter range, sure it has a second set of guns that the G'Vrahnd does not, but they are shorter range on a slower ship, which means that those guns wont get used very often, and depending on what it is fighting, at all. The One-shot E-mine also pales in comparison to the Slow-Loading one on the G'Vrahn.

The ship, for almost every situation, is inferior to the G'Vrahn.

Another example is in the Crusade Era Earth, I do not see why anyone would take a Omega-class Command Destroyer over a Warlock-class Advanced Destroyer. The Omega-class is superior in only very minor areas, it has 6 flights to the Warlock's 4, nad has Carrier 2, it also has 2 more Anti-fighter and 1 more interceptor.

The Damage it can take is significantly less, its lumbering, and its weapons are inferior to the Warlock's weapons. It is slightly slower and lacks the flight computer the Warlock has, it also has an inferior ranged punch when compared to the Warlock's Advanced Missle Rack and Heavy Particle cannon.

A similiar, but much less severe, superiority lies in the Omega vs Marathon comparison.

I also know the value of scout very much, it is one of the (many) reasons I would never field an exclusivly Blue Star fleet, because White Star's Scout is what makes it worth its Raid level.

 

[Stonehorse]

After my game against a Narn fleet today, I have to say Narn can be very fast... my Shadow Ship couldn't get away from them, due to a0 the sheer number of them, and b) a good combination of Agile trait and special orders.

 

[H]

Interesting, that does take alot of punch out of those upper-tier shadow ships, my friend will think they are quite subpar now no doubt.

As for Obselete ships, ill pull out an example;

The Narn Bin'Tak-class Dreadnought is clearly inferior to the G'Vrahn-class Fast cruiser.

It is slower, less manueverable, has less flights, only slightly more Damage and crew, is lumbering, and its guns are shorter range, sure it has a second set of guns that the G'Vrahnd does not, but they are shorter range on a slower ship, which means that those guns wont get used very often, and depending on what it is fighting, at all. The One-shot E-mine also pales in comparison to the Slow-Loading one on the G'Vrahn.

The ship, for almost every situation, is inferior to the G'Vrahn.

Another example is in the Crusade Era Earth, I do not see why anyone would take a Omega-class Command Destroyer over a Warlock-class Advanced Destroyer. The Omega-class is superior in only very minor areas, it has 6 flights to the Warlock's 4, nad has Carrier 2, it also has 2 more Anti-fighter and 1 more interceptor.

The Damage it can take is significantly less, its lumbering, and its weapons are inferior to the Warlock's weapons. It is slightly slower and lacks the flight computer the Warlock has, it also has an inferior ranged punch when compared to the Warlock's Advanced Missle Rack and Heavy Particle cannon.

A similiar, but much less severe, superiority lies in the Omega vs Marathon comparison.

I also know the value of scout very much, it is one of the (many) reasons I would never field an exclusivly Blue Star fleet, because White Star's Scout is what makes it worth its Raid level.

The G'Vrahn is indeed a fine ship, but If you want anything to blitz right through an enemy line, and still cause pain, that something is a BinTak. I have flown it (very slowly) into a fleet, and it hits anything that comes close. in the right scenario, write off a BinTak at your peril

 

[angelus2000]

Bin'Tak is the anvil, G'Vrahn is the Hammer. Besides, every Bin'Tak I've ever seen on the board has a charmed life, the sculptors must have been in Good with Joeboo they day they made them, cause in all the games I've played, I've seen like 2 die. Critted in uselessness? Yes. Out-manuevered? Yes Poorly-positioned? Yes. Blown up? Hell, no. Ive seen thing down to Speed 0, No SA, etc etc, and still managed to whack a Hyperion that got a bit too close right out of the sky with those short range secondaries. Cept now, they are lot harder to crit unto uselessness

As for the Command Omega verse Warlock, the command Omega is a specialist ship for low PL engagements, where its fighter numbers and higher command bonus can come into play

 

[scorpioni]

BTW Zeru, you forgot the dilgar

 

[Zeru]

No I didnt I just did not have an impression of them yet, kind of like Earth: Early Years, and Earth: 3rd Age.

I looked at the Gaim again btw, and i have no clue how some fleets could even hope to match what they have, that is ALOT of fighters and ALOT of E-mines.

 

[Gunnvaldr]

A similiar, but much less severe, superiority lies in the Omega vs Marathon comparison. quote]

I love the Marathon for it's solid defense system, maneuverability, and good weapon load out.

 

[Gunnvaldr]

clarification: Maneuverability in terms of it's speed.

The Omega does stand better against beam weapons, and I'll pick afew for fluff

 

[Zeru]

I am also wondering about the Centauri, now that I have discussed their fleet with a friend of mine.
DD and Twin-Linked seems to be their fleets one claim to fame, because they do not have much else, I thought that was plenty, but he believes in comparison to many of the other fleets, that it is a sub-par one trick pony that they rely on. I do not think he looked at the other aspects of the ships very closely though, but then again, he always assumes he is going to be fighting things with dodge :roll: and he believes Precise to be a must have to compete. He also does not think much of Beam weapons (being a math major he looks at the averages for everything.) He thinks AP or Super AP would have been much better then Twin-Linked.

 

[Dizzy Vree]

among your brakiri gems you forgot the avioki and the kaliva, an 8ad DD beam is NOT sub-par, i play a mixed leuge fleet(mostly vree and gaim) but aviokis/kalivas will apear whenever possible

 

[Zeru]

Those two are alright, but Beam weapons do not impress me math-wise (thanks to my math major buddy) and the Kaliva is a pretty Solid Battle level ship, but it is nothing to amazing.

Damn I am becoming hard to please, I have two pessamists and a Math-Major playing this game with me, and one of the pessamists believes this game is incrediably un-balanced.

 

[Gunnvaldr]

He thinks AP or Super AP would have been much better then Twin-Linked.

I personally perfer T-L over AP or SAP, even if they're sexy alternative. Since most of your batteries are aimed a mid range, you want to ensure you beat the hull and increase pressure on interceptor through the weight of solid hits. It also free's you from using CAF.

If he wants SAP, well that's what the Vorchan is there for, theoretically he would need to flood a enemy ship with T-L Ions and then us the Vorchans to punch big holes in 'em

 

[Da Boss]

I am also wondering about the Centauri, now that I have discussed their fleet with a friend of mine.
DD and Twin-Linked seems to be their fleets one claim to fame, because they do not have much else, I thought that was plenty, but he believes in comparison to many of the other fleets, that it is a sub-par one trick pony that they rely on. I do not think he looked at the other aspects of the ships very closely though, but then again, he always assumes he is going to be fighting things with dodge :roll: and he believes Precise to be a must have to compete. He also does not think much of Beam weapons (being a math major he looks at the averages for everything.) He thinks AP or Super AP would have been much better then Twin-Linked.

Centauri my good dear friend are awesome - they have a massive variety of ships for all tastes:

DD and twin linked is great (and they work about the same as AP DD)- especially on ships like the Demos - which also has the Precise, SAP DD missiles he wants - just close the blast doors when reloading.
When he has played a bit more he will realise how important beams are - for one thing ignore interceptors.....and of course Centauri ones are precise. If he is worried about dodge take a Liati - accurate guns, super speed and maneuvaility abd nasty beam. If he wants stealth take a Dargan if he wants big gun line - Primus/Ocuturion/Elutraian/Altarian. Always take a maxiums - cos its great.
Fighters - some of the best in the game - and a nice raid level carrier
Ask him to take another look at quite how good they are..............

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Like Da Boss says, the new-look Centauri are better than ever. The Maker has blessed them with great, big engines to close with the enemy quickly, great, big manouevering thrusters for agility in the close-range fight, great, big guns to blast seven kinds of Hell out of the enemy, great, big carriers to get plenty of fighters into the battle, and great, big... well, you get the idea.

I love the Centauri fleet. It's almost exactly how we see them fight in the show. Get in there fast, blast the enemy to bits and circle away to attack elsewhere, while the big ships lumber in pouring ion fire onto anything left alive. Just watch for those dirty e-mines and concentrate fire on interceptor-carrying targets.

 

[Greg Smith]

Those two are alright, but Beam weapons do not impress me math-wise (thanks to my math major buddy).

Ask your maths buddy what the maximum damage any beam can generate is. :twisted: Beams do 2-3 times the damage a similar TL or AP weapon will do, on average. Maths is one way to look at ships, but I think once you start playing, you will find maths isn't everything.

 

[Triggy]

Maths is one way to look at ships, but I think once you start playing, you will find maths isn't everything.

What?!? You can't possibly mean that!

Beams have their strengths in two areas - one is that they ignore Interceptors and possibly more importantly, ignore Hull values (i.e. they are great at killing ships like Omega Destroyers), the other is a little harder to grasp and that is that they are unpredictable. Normally in a weapon this isn't a good thing but with beams it ends up meaning your opponent fears the potential damage that can be suffered rather than the average damage and may even force him into different tactics.

Zeru - your fleet descriptions are fairly good but there are definitely gaps in where you're missing out on certain tactics or think your favoured tactics are definitely the way to go. Have fun finding more of the options available to you such as a Brakiri fleet with Ikortas/Brikortas with an Avioki and Shakara...

 

[Greg Smith]

Maths is one way to look at ships, but I think once you start playing, you will find maths isn't everything.

What?!? You can't possibly mean that!

No, just kidding.