Fixed Mounts?

[AnotherDilbert]

I do not understand the rules for Fixed Mounts.

There seems to be three different types of Fixed Mounts:
A: Fixed Mount (hardpoint) [Weapons&Screen p1, Turrets&Fixed Mounts] 0 dTon MCr 0.1
B: Fixed Mount (firmpoint) [Weapons&Screen p1, Small craft] ? dTon MCr ?
C: Fixed Mount (smaller weapon) [Weapons&Screen p9, Smaller Weapons] 1 dTon MCr 0.001

Type A can mount 3 weapons, fired together (3D+6 instead of 3*3D)
Type B can mount 1 weapon, hence not fired together if you have several firmpoints?
Type C can mount 1 weapon, or perhaps 4 light weapons (<250kg), not fired together?

The rules for Type A refers to small craft, so perhaps they should apply to all Fixed Mounts? Including the requirement for a hard point?

I assume this confusion is not intended, so perhaps the rules need clarification?

 

[AndrewW]

I do not understand the rules for Fixed Mounts.

There seems to be three different types of Fixed Mounts:
A: Fixed Mount (hardpoint) [Weapons&Screen p1, Turrets&Fixed Mounts] 0 dTon MCr 0.1
B: Fixed Mount (firmpoint) [Weapons&Screen p1, Small craft] ? dTon MCr ?
C: Fixed Mount (smaller weapon) [Weapons&Screen p9, Smaller Weapons] 1 dTon MCr 0.001

Type A can mount 3 weapons, fired together (3D+6 instead of 3*3D)
Type B can mount 1 weapon, hence not fired together if you have several firmpoints?
Type C can mount 1 weapon, or perhaps 4 light weapons (<250kg), not fired together?

The rules for Type A refers to small craft, so perhaps they should apply to all Fixed Mounts? Including the requirement for a hard point?

Your listed type B is for small craft, not type A.

Small craft don't have hardpoints but firmpoints, thus those fixed mounts are different.

Just what is confusing to you?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

A small craft has two firmpoints with fixed mounted Pulse Lasers installed. Does it do 2D+2 or 2*2D? What is the size and cost?

Another small craft has 2 tons of smaller weapons, specifically 8 HMGs. Do they fire together or separately? Do they fire together on groups of 3, 4, or 8?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The rules for Type A:

Up to three weapons may be mounted on a fixed mount (small craft have additional limitations – see page XX),

If this rule has nothing to do with small craft, why does it say that small craft has additional limitations, hinting that this rule applies to small craft?

 

[Nerhesi]

The rules for Type A:

Up to three weapons may be mounted on a fixed mount (small craft have additional limitations – see page XX),

If this rule has nothing to do with small craft, why does it say that small craft has additional limitations, hinting that this rule applies to small craft?

It does actually. It is refering to the fact that smallcraft firmpoints can be fixed mounts or turrets. Extra clarity is given so if you use a smallcraft firmpoint fixed mount, you can still only mount 1 weapon there, not 3 as is indicated in the base rules.

Examples with each firmpoint labelled 1-, 2- or 3-:

30 ton fighter A: 1 - fixed mount pulse laser (reduced range & power consumption)
30 ton fighter B: 1 - single turret beam laser (reduced range & power consumption)
30 ton fighter C: 1 - single turret missile launcher (no change)
etc

60 ton fighter A: 1 - fixed mount pulse laser (reduced range & power consumption), 2 - fixed mount pulse laser (as previous)
60 ton fighter B: 1 - particle barbette taking up 2 firmpoints (reductions as above - reduced range, reduced power)
60 ton fighter C: 1 - missile or torpedo barbette taking up 2 firmpoints (no change)
60 ton fighter A: 1 - fixed mount pulse laser (reduced range & power consumption), 2 - missile launcher (no change)
etc

90 ton fighter A: 1 - single turret pulse laser (reduced range & power consumption), 2 - single turret pulse laser (as previous), 3 - single turret pulse laser (as previous) (functionally a triple pulse turret with reduced range)
90 ton fighter B: 1 - particle barbette taking up 2 firmpoints (reductions as above - reduced range, reduced power), 2 - pulse laser (reduced range & power consumption)
90 ton fighter C: 1 - missile or torpedo barbette taking up 2 firmpoints (no change), 2 - pulse laser (reduced range & power consumption)
90 ton fighter D: 1 - pulse laser (reduced range & power consumption), 2 - missile launcher (no change), 3 - missile launcher (no change)
etc

Illegal configs:
30 ton fighter A: 1 - fixed mount triple pulse laser (only a single weapon per fixed mount firmpoint)
60 ton fighter A: 1 - fixed mount double pulse laser, 2 - fixed mount triple pulse laser (same mistake here - regardless of double or triple)
60 ton fighter B: 1 - missile launcher, 2 - fixed mount triple beam laser (missile launcher is fine, but more than one weapon on a single firmpoint is not)

 

[Nerhesi]

I do not understand the rules for Fixed Mounts.

There seems to be three different types of Fixed Mounts:
A: Fixed Mount (hardpoint) [Weapons&Screen p1, Turrets&Fixed Mounts] 0 dTon MCr 0.1
B: Fixed Mount (firmpoint) [Weapons&Screen p1, Small craft] ? dTon MCr ?
C: Fixed Mount (smaller weapon) [Weapons&Screen p9, Smaller Weapons] 1 dTon MCr 0.001

Type A can mount 3 weapons, fired together (3D+6 instead of 3*3D)
Type B can mount 1 weapon, hence not fired together if you have several firmpoints?
Type C can mount 1 weapon, or perhaps 4 light weapons (<250kg), not fired together?

The rules for Type A refers to small craft, so perhaps they should apply to all Fixed Mounts? Including the requirement for a hard point?

I assume this confusion is not intended, so perhaps the rules need clarification?

Type B mounting the same weapons is treated as the same weapon. Example: 90 dton smallcraft with 3 fixed mount pulse lasers, you do fire 2D+4 for damage.

Type C, up to 4 light weapons are fired together, you are correct. Example: 4 FGMPs doing 2DD each would be be 2DD+60, or 2D+6 in space scale. I think Matt weighed in and said there will be text box about GMs watching out here for abuse, and addressing things like range and targetting penalties for using these weapons in space.

 

[Nerhesi]

A small craft has two firmpoints with fixed mounted Pulse Lasers installed. Does it do 2D+2 or 2*2D? What is the size and cost?

It does 2D+2.
Size and cost is as per normal (at least for now, Cost my change, but size wont).

Another small craft has 2 tons of smaller weapons, specifically 8 HMGs. Do they fire together or separately? Do they fire together on groups of 3, 4, or 8?

They fire in two distinct groups. 2 x 4 HMGs each as each one is mounted on a 1-ton fixed mount or popup turret as indicated. So as per normal rules, each mounting rolls to hit (whether it be turret, barbette, small bay, med bay, etc etc)

 

[AnotherDilbert]

What you are saying is very reasonable and probably how it should work, but not what RAW says.

Turret or Fixed Mount:
a. Require 1 Hardpoint.
b. Up to three weapons.
c. May be fired together (or not?).
d. Require one gunner.

According to RAW it's all or nothing.

If you fire them together, it requires a hardpoint.
Max mount size is 3, not 4.
You can fire weapons on the same fixed mount together, not weapons on different firmpoints, hence different fixed mounts.



Perhaps the rule should be something like:
Turrets and Fixed Mounts
Turrets and fixed mounts use the same type of weapons but whereas a fixed mount may only fire at targets directly ahead of it, a turret rotates and may engage any target in sight. Lasers and sandcasters can only be used as a reaction to attacks if the are mounted in turrets (Core p160). Small craft can install fixed mounts to fire at any fixed direction, typically directly ahead.

One turret or fixed mount may be attached to each Hardpoint or Firmpoint on a ship.

Up to three weapons may be mounted on a fixed mount (small craft have additional limitations – see page XX), while turrets can mount one, two or three weapons, depending on their type. These weapons need not be of the same type but only one type may be used in the same attack.

If two or more weapons are of the same type, they may be fired together. One attack roll is made for all weapons being fired, but each additional weapon adds +1 per damage dice to the final damage total. Small craft fire all of their firm points together.

For example, if a triple turret with three pulse lasers is fired, it will only make one attack roll but will deal 2D+4 damage (two additional pulse lasers each adding +1 per damage dice).

Turrets and fixed mounts require just one gunner to operate, even if multiple weapons are mounted upon them. The Pilot can fire all fixed mounts directly ahead, such fixed mounts does not need a Gunner.


And under Smaller Weapons:
Each ton, or each weapon if larger than 1 ton, is a separate fixed mount.

If two or more weapons are of the same type, they may be fired together. One attack roll is made for all weapons being fired, but each additional weapon adds +1 per damage dice to the final damage total.

 

[Nerhesi]

What you are saying is very reasonable and probably how it should work, but not what RAW says.
Turret or Fixed Mount:
...
c. May be fired together (or not?).

Sorry - I dont see the rules to where you can fire a triple pulse laser seperately as 3 attacks. I thought it was pretty clear in core rules - can you point me to where it says otherwise?

According to RAW it's all or nothing.

If you fire them together, it requires a hardpoint.
Max mount size is 3, not 4.
You can fire weapons on the same fixed mount together, not weapons on different firmpoints, hence different fixed mounts.

Looks like we're confusing two things here.

Turrets/Fixed mounts on non-smallcraft can mount up to 3 weapons.

Small Weapons (text box), allows up to 4 weapons, each under 250kg, to be mounted together. This isn't the turret rules, these are small-weapon rules. This is aligned with Battledress and vehicles mounting smaller weapons where they can put up to 4 weapons on the same mount (quad linked).

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Sorry - I dont see the rules to where you can fire a triple pulse laser seperately as 3 attacks. I thought it was pretty clear in core rules - can you point me to where it says otherwise?

Double and Triple Turrets
...
However, if two or more weapons are of the same type, they may be fired together. One attack roll is made for all weapons being fired, but each additional weapon adds +1 per damage dice to the nal damage total.

Note only turrets.

Turrets and Fixed Mounts
...
If two or more weapons are of the same type, they may be fired together. One attack roll is made for all weapons being fired, but each additional weapon adds +1 per damage dice to the final damage total.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Small Weapons (text box), allows up to 4 weapons, each under 250kg, to be mounted together. This isn't the turret rules, these are small-weapon rules. This is aligned with Battledress and vehicles mounting smaller weapons where they can put up to 4 weapons on the same mount (quad linked).

Yes, Smaller Weapons says nothing about firing together.
Firing together is a property of turrets of fixed mounts that takes a hardpoint.

 

[Nerhesi]

Small Weapons (text box), allows up to 4 weapons, each under 250kg, to be mounted together. This isn't the turret rules, these are small-weapon rules. This is aligned with Battledress and vehicles mounting smaller weapons where they can put up to 4 weapons on the same mount (quad linked).

Yes, Smaller Weapons says nothing about firing together.
Firing together is a property of turrets of fixed mounts that takes a hardpoint.

Firing together, is a property of mounting any identical weapons together. Not a property dependent on whether it is 4 assault rifles on a battle-dress turret, or 3 pulse lasers on ship turret.

However, lets examine your proposed logic: Mounting 4 small weapons together, gives you bonus damage to each based on the damage dice (as per RAW) and they still fire separately (as per you indication that). Is that logically sound to you? Mounting 4 weapons together makes all 4 separate shots more powerful even though they're on the same mounting, identical to turrets?

Or is it logically sound that if the rules state identical weapons mounted together, fire as one with a damage bonus in one section; that it logically follows that the section where it states small weapons are mounted together get a damage bonus, also fire as one?

I'm with you in that we can use the same language to avoid confusion. I just really dont think there is any major confusion

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Firing together, is a property of mounting any identical weapons together. Not a property dependent on whether it is 4 assault rifles on a battle-dress turret, or 3 pulse lasers on ship turret.

RAW says that this is specifically a property of starship turrets an BD Integrated Weapon Mount, note that BD Heavy Mount says nothing of the sort.

I have skimmed the Combat, Vehicle Combat, and Vehicle Design rules for any generic formulation of this rule and failed to find it.

I note that you say two different things: All weapons of the same type on the same mount must be fired together, OR All small craft space scale weapons of the same type on ALL mounts must be fired together. I can't see that the rules say that.

Are you suggesting that several spinal mounts should be fired together in this manner?

However, lets examine your proposed logic: Mounting 4 small weapons together, gives you bonus damage to each based on the damage dice (as per RAW) and they still fire separately (as per you indication that). Is that logically sound to you? Mounting 4 weapons together makes all 4 separate shots more powerful even though they're on the same mounting, identical to turrets?

The rules say:

If two or more weapons are of the same type, they may be fired together.
One attack roll is made for all weapons being fired, but each additional weapon adds +1 per damage dice to the final damage total.

This can just as well mean that: I can group them together as I see fit, for each group one damage roll made, for each additional weapon IN THE GROUP +1 per die.


What you say makes sense, but I cannot see that the rules actually agree with you. I was certainly fooled. I think AndrewW was a bit confused earlier in the thread:

Small craft don't have hardpoints but firmpoints, thus those fixed mounts are different.

If small craft fixed mount are of a different kind, what is the size and what do they cost?

 

[AndrewW]

If small craft fixed mount are of a different kind, what is the size and what do they cost?

Mounts for small craft are covered in chapter 3 Weapons and Screens for High Guard under Small Craft. Those are the rules for mounting starship weapons specifically on small craft, for anything else not mentioned there (such as the cost for a fixed mount) use the regular rules.

So a small craft fixed mount would still cost the same as on a larger starship MCr 0.1.

 

[Nerhesi]

Are you suggesting that several spinal mounts should be fired together in this manner?

Not at all I'm suggesting that any time you mount identical weapons together, and they benefit from that bonus damage per die, they are fired together.

So IF Matt suddenly says "hey, mount up to 4 spinals together", then yes, they would fall under the same rules I just doubt that is happening lol.

What you say makes sense, but I cannot see that the rules actually agree with you. I was certainly fooled. I think AndrewW was a bit confused earlier in the thread:

Small craft don't have hardpoints but firmpoints, thus those fixed mounts are different.

If small craft fixed mount are of a different kind, what is the size and what do they cost?

A Firmpoint, is just a hardpoint with a following modifications, as indicated by raw:
a) It can only hold 1 weapon, whether it is a single turret or a fixed mount.
b) Its range is severely reduced as per the rules.
c) It consumes only 75% of the power.

So that is right - same size as per hardpoint rules. Cost is the same - but it obviously needs a change.

I do concede that we need some common language up in here.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

A Firmpoint, is just a hardpoint with a following modifications

The rules doesn't say that:
"Ships of less than 100 tons have Firmpoints instead of Hardpoints."
"A weapon mounted upon a Firmpoint has the following changes applied to it." The weapon is modified, not the Hardpoint.

Firing together, is a property of mounting any identical weapons together.

Please show me the rule, since I cannot find it.


So, if I mount two Particle turret weapons in two separate single fixed mounts on a small craft, I fire them together.

If I mount two Gauss Cannon small weapons in two separate single fixed mounts, I fire them together?

If I mount ten Gauss Cannon small weapons in ten separate single fixed mounts, I fire them together?

If I mount two spinal mounts in two separate single fixed mounts, I fire them together? (Nothing in the rules says that I can only have a single spinal, so, yes, several spinals seems entirely legal.)

If I mount two Particle turret weapons, one in a single fixed mount and one in a turret, on a small craft, I fire them together?

If I mount four Particle turret weapons, two each in two separate fixed mounts, I do not fire them together?



Sometimes you are saying: Fire all identical weapons in a single mount together.
Sometimes you are saying: Fire all identical weapons in several mounts together.
I see no rule separating these cases.

 

[Nerhesi]

A Firmpoint, is just a hardpoint with a following modifications

The rules doesn't say that:
"Ships of less than 100 tons have Firmpoints instead of Hardpoints."
"A weapon mounted upon a Firmpoint has the following changes applied to it." The weapon is modified, not the Hardpoint.

Ok now you're just having a go at me This is very clear. Your two quoted points are the exact definition of an implication.

a) Firmpoints instead of hardpoints.
b) Firmpoints are the weapons with changes.

A firmpoint is literally a hardpoint with further constraints (range, # of weapons, etc). Next time I write this part, I'll endeavour to be clearer (so don't blame Matt for this section)

Firing together, is a property of mounting any identical weapons together.

Please show me the rule, since I cannot find it.

It is only explicitly stated in turrets/space weaponry, which is why I agreed that it needs clarity here. There was a previous discussion (some time ago) that actually brought this up, which is why Matt clarified it in that section.

1) So, if I mount two Particle turret weapons in two separate single fixed mounts on a small craft, I fire them together.
2) If I mount two Gauss Cannon small weapons in two separate single fixed mounts, I fire them together?
3) If I mount ten Gauss Cannon small weapons in ten separate single fixed mounts, I fire them together?
4) If I mount two spinal mounts in two separate single fixed mounts, I fire them together? (Nothing in the rules says that I can only have a single spinal, so, yes, several spinals seems entirely legal.)
5) If I mount two Particle turret weapons, one in a single fixed mount and one in a turret, on a small craft, I fire them together?
6) If I mount four Particle turret weapons, two each in two separate fixed mounts, I do not fire them together?

1) Ive changed my opinion on this one item. I would say no (and see below). However, I highly doubt Particle/Plasma turrets will NOT be triple or double turret/weapon requirements, or else you end up with the weird scenario where a triple (3x) turret of that type is infinitely better than their bigger brother barbettes! (3D+6 vs 4D) :shock: :? :lol:

2) Gauss Cannons are are greater than 250kg, so they are mounted as separate weapons taking up tonnage equal to their weight; not a collection of weapons on the same mount. So they cant benefit from the "mounted together" scenario such as triple/double pulse lasers, 4 HMGs, and so on.

3) Nope - as above. Keep in mind I have concerns about abuses here (because small weapons dont take up firmpoints or hardpoints slots. Matt said he prefers not to insert mechanics for this. I had recommended that we can simply state each small weapon (or group of them taking up to 1 ton) takes up a firmpoint (or hardpoint) slot; but he said he would put in some Refree-warning textbox about abuses.

4) Nope. The language implicitly references a single spinal per ship. A ship is built around the spinal weapon. Also, I will clear your apparent confusion about my point of view below - but as there are no rules for mounting spinal weapons, then you couldn't fire them together.

5) Interesting question - maybe you can't or maybe you must? for Simplicity's sake I would say no you can't to be consistent with (1)

6) This doesn't seem to be about smallcraft. This seems very clear to me actually. You can't fire 4 seperate Particle Turrets together, anymore than you could fire 4 Pulse laser turrets together, or 400 pulse laser turrets together.

Sometimes you are saying: Fire all identical weapons in a single mount together.
Sometimes you are saying: Fire all identical weapons in several mounts together.
I see no rule separating these cases.

I am was always saying "Fire all identical weapons in a single mount together" with one exception (identical weapons on firmpoints). Im now changing my stance so there is no exception - and because there are no balance concerns. I was wrong and I will just say dont treat firmpoints as anything to be combined.

Therefore my stance is that:

Fire all identical weapons in a single mount together. This would apply to:

Spacecraft turrets with double/triple pulse or beam lasers.
Battledress linked weaponry.
Small weapons on spacecraft that individually weigh under 250kg, and are grouped up to 4 weapons per mount.

So to me, the rules about firing "linked" are implicit to there being rules about being "mounted together". But yes, some clarity would go a long way.

Whew

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Sorry if I pushed to hard, but I didn't understand the RAW.

I'm not trying to wind you up, I just want these very basic rules to be crystal clear.

When you have to resort to "It's implied..." the rules are not clear.

At least I think I made you understand what I didn't understand, so perhaps the tread wasn't wasted...

 

[Nerhesi]

Sorry if I pushed to hard, but I didn't understand the RAW.

I'm not trying to wind you up, I just want these very basic rules to be crystal clear.

When you have to resort to "It's implied..." the rules are not clear.

At least I think I made you understand what I didn't understand, so perhaps the tread wasn't wasted...

Dont be sorry at all. You actually added clarity to something I had assumed was fine, but it obviously wasn't. This has been, a good conversation! (shameless last samurai rip)

 

[AndrewW]

Sorry if I pushed to hard, but I didn't understand the RAW.

At least I think I made you understand what I didn't understand, so perhaps the tread wasn't wasted...

Don't be sorry. It's good to learn what isn't clearly understood from the start. Some of us are already familiar with the stuff and understanding just seems automatic for us.

If someone isn't understanding something, that is an indication that it might need some clarification.