FFE Spinward Marches map (not MGT!)

[EDG]

I was surprised to notice that FFE have just released a PDF map of the Spinward Marches sector on DTRPG, complete with UWPs (I have no idea if these are corrected UWPs or not, they're from the "Second Survey", whatever that is). And it's cheaper than what MGT will be offering in November (which is why I'm not linking it here).

Does this strike anyone else as being a bit strange? We've got Mongoose releasing a Spinward Marches map of their own, but now FFE have released the same thing for less? I don't know if this is just a PDF version whereas the MGT one is only going to be hardcopy, on nice paper, etc but still, Competing with your own licensees seems a little odd to me.

(Also, what the hell? 72MB for an 8 page book?!)

 

[Anonymous]

You can also get the original handmade version from Marc's Facebook page (27 Meg IIRC but it is very high res size).

Rog.

 

[AndrewW]

As a comparison, the 300 dpi scan I did of the Spinward Marches map that came with the Deluxe edition is: 54,802,063 bytes. That's after a lot of cleaning up (original stitched images: 261,959,450 bytes...).

 

[AndrewW]

Does this strike anyone else as being a bit strange? We've got Mongoose releasing a Spinward Marches map of their own, but now FFE have released the same thing for less? I don't know if this is just a PDF version whereas the MGT one is only going to be hardcopy, on nice paper, etc but still, Competing with your own licensees seems a little odd to me.

Well, we know the MGT one is going to be hardcopy so price wise this would likely be more then a PDF. No idea if they will also offer a PDF or not though.

Does seem a tad odd that they are releasing now with the MGT one coming up, but maybe it'll be PDF only and the MGT one will be hardcopy only.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

So, assuming there are differences in the maps (and you KNOW there will be even if only typos), which would be considered "Canon"????? :twisted:

 

[TravellerArt]

I've got these and I assume they are really only released for historical/nostalgia reasons and for completionists like me, and not as any competition to the forthcoming Mongoose version.
One is the original hand drawn copy that I believe Marc only recently found and one is a scanned version of the Deluxe box set map from 1981 (aah, memories). The third is a white background version, from where I do not know.
The scanned quality is OK but I should not think it will compete with a modern vector based graphics print.
I would assume there are differences between this and the MGT version though I have checked a few UWPs at random and they were the same.
As to which is the more canon, ooh, I am sure there will be pages of 'discussion' over this one over at CotI :wink:

 

[captainjack23]

Some data on the odd issue should help resolve this:

MG seems to be publishing a very high quality, single sheet wall map.

Spinward Marches Map pack

Author: Nick Robinson
Series: Traveller

Price: £5.00
Format: Poster (1 pages)
Shipping date: November 2009
Ref: ISBN 978-1-907218-07-1 | MGP3827

Note: One page.

Says "pretty wall map and prop for gaming" to me.

The FFE map looks to be partly a historical interest kind of product what with the original (authors) SWM map included with some cool toys for a GM:
(from DTRPGs product info)

PLUS, huge downloadable JPGs of the three maps (warning: big downloads) editable with an image processor (Photoshop, Paint Shop Pro, and others).

No doubt this explains the size of the downloads.

And also some gaming data ; no, I don't know what it's canonicity is, although I suspect that since the datasets both come from the same source, they'll both be vetted by the same source, with at least compatability being the gal -my opinion entirely, but it seems to be the goal in more recent reissues oc CT maerial in MGT format.

Most likely, it'll just be CT archival data, easily divorced from MGT if you want to. IIRC the second survey was the classic CT newer data (chronologically in the OTU).

Nonetheless, I suspect errors will creep in in both versions, and cause differences, even with existing MGT products, as they have with all previous versions, and so become contentious to those who want it to be so. Who should probably avoid buying one or both versions.




Given that I don't have access to a plotter, if I want the high quality large map, I suspect I'll see no conflict about which one to purchase; certainly no more than FFE keeping such OTU items as the spinward marches CT books in print, while mongoose has MJD's. So from my perspective, not having a horse in the canon or best publisher races (I still use the LBB suppliment+ my dogheaded changes and swipes from all editions including MGT) there doesn't seem to be too much in common with a big cool poster and some old background and an interesting look at the original SWM presented as reference and props.

 

[Stainless]

You can also get the original handmade version from Marc's Facebook page (27 Meg IIRC but it is very high res size).

Rog.

Maps aside, what's this about Marc's facebook page?!

 

[TravellerArt]

Maps aside, what's this about Marc's facebook page?!

If you become a fan of his 'TRAVELLER Science-Fiction Adventure in the Far Future' page on facebook you'll find him.

 

[Anonymous]

for those of us who *can't print things at work* a hardcopy for £5 sounds like a bargain.
Printing the large pdf would cost the gdp of a low tech planet in ink

 

[smiths121]

Downloaded the maps.

The UWP listing is the interesting thing.The stellar classifications of the system is there, which I think are the same Classic Traveller Spinward Marches Campaign. PBG is there, which I have never seen published for the Spinward Marches, although easily downloaded.
There is the W stat for the total number of worlds.

The thing I noted was Ix, Ex, Cx NABZ extensions are there for every system, which as I understand are new in T5.

In summary I think the world list is designed for use with T5.

 

[EDG]

The thing I noted was Ix, Ex, Cx NABZ extensions are there for every system, which as I understand are new in T5.

In summary I think the world list is designed for use with T5.

Yep, that's T5. Which is odd, considering that T5 hasn't been officially released to the public yet.

It's also interesting in that it implies that the UWP format has actually changed, so there goes backward compatibility.

 

[Dave Chase]

The thing I noted was Ix, Ex, Cx NABZ extensions are there for every system, which as I understand are new in T5.

In summary I think the world list is designed for use with T5.

Yep, that's T5. Which is odd, considering that T5 hasn't been officially released to the public yet.

It's also interesting in that it implies that the UWP format has actually changed, so there goes backward compatibility.

Really (being sarcastic), I think I have been saying that for months that MGT has been and is using things from the not yet released T5.

After all, T5 will be a set (or subset) of the Traveller license and possibly just a subset of MGT license for compatibility.

Dave Chase

 

[EDG]

Really (being sarcastic), I think I have been saying that for months that MGT has been and is using things from the not yet released T5.

The product with the T5 UWPs is the currently available FFE PDF, not the Mongoose map.

We don't know yet if the MGT map will even have any UWPs with it, but the MGT corebook doesn't have a way to generate those extra stats for UWPs anyway.

 

[captainjack23]

Really (being sarcastic), I think I have been saying that for months that MGT has been and is using things from the not yet released T5.

After all, T5 will be a set (or subset) of the Traveller license and possibly just a subset of MGT license for compatibility.

Dave Chase

My guess is that given the existing hooks in MGT to fit into T5, that the extra classifications will be treated as advanced add-ons (like the specialized career books) probably covered as part of the eventual worldbook for MGT: or maybe the merchant career book.

As to the T5/MGT relationship, I think the intent is, and always was, for them to be broadly compatible; and T5 is backward compatible "with additions" for other editions kinda like how software handles it.

 

[smiths121]

My summary may of been a little direct. The system stat line is a superset of t5. I think it is designed to work with all versions of traveller.

For example the allegiance is moved to the normal location and not t5. basically use what your version offer

 

[EDG]

I'm guessing that no attempt has been made to fix the UWPs either.

And I'm guessing that the extra "cultural codes" or whatever they are all randomly generated with no oversight, so they'll make about as much sense as most of the UWPs don't.

 

[captainjack23]

So, I actually bought it so that 1. I could stop speculating, and 2. have a cool product for $2.00.

It has all needed MGT codes, plus lots of the T5 additions -and yes, it looks as if the T5 superset idea is still running.

Guess what.
It looks like there has been UWP cleaning. On the first page alone, I noted four or five places where small worlds had been bumped up in size to accommodate the atmosphere - although mertractor still is an oddity, it's about the only small world with a fairly substantial atmosphere left -and its a chirper world, which means the ancients may be responsible. (hate em or love em, they would terraform small worlds and give them denser atmospheres)

Quick rundown looks like lots of siz/atm combinations have been bumped up to 4/2 or 4/3 - or a 5 size for a thicker atmosphere.
0139 goes from 1/3 to 4/3;
0332 goes from 2/2 to 4/2;
1515 from 3/3 to a 4/3;
1604 from 3/2 to 4/2;
1728 from 3/2 to 4/2;
1729 from 1/4 to 5/4;
1736 from 1/4 to 5/4.

Those are just on the first page !

Haven't looked at the stellar types yet; I won't be too suprised if they skew away from a simple representation of stellar types, as IIRC the T5 development was skewing results towards more habitable stars for inhabited planets. Oh yeah, no doubt plus the beloved red giants of golden age SF.....

Note: these are all comparisons to the CT spinward marches campaign. Haven't had the time to drag out the MGT version.

 

[EDG]

So the UWP codes are different.

The next question is whether or not any effort was made to ensure that the new cultural/social/economic/whatever codes agree with the cultures/societies/economics/whatever actually described in MGT's Spinward Marches book... if not, this would mean that we definitely have two different "current" versions of the Marches now (though the only people who actually can tell if they are similar or different are those who have access to the T5 draft). I suspect that the codes were randomly generated and have no correspondence at all to the MGT world descriptions.

Either way, the canonical Spinward Marches UWPs/World descriptions for Mongoose Traveller are the ones that are presented in the MGT Spinward Marches book.

 

[captainjack23]

So the UWP codes are different.

Yes - corrections, according to some, long needed to remove gross physical impossibilities. This is probably, a good thing, implemented in the least impactful way possible. Thumbs up says I.

The next question is whether or not any effort was made to ensure that the new cultural/social/economic/whatever codes agree with the cultures/societies/economics/whatever actually described in MGT's Spinward Marches book... if not, this would mean that we definitely have two different "current" versions of the Marches now (though the only people who actually can tell if they are similar or different are those who have access to the T5 draft). I suspect that the codes were randomly generated and have no correspondence at all to the MGT world descriptions.

Either way, the canonical Spinward Marches UWPs/World descriptions for Mongoose Traveller are the ones that are presented in the MGT Spinward Marches book.

Well, since the cultural descriptors (pop, GT, LL) don't seem to be different, I'm guessing that if MGT followed them, all should be well. tech is a bit iffy but dependent on game date among other things. All the rest are mainly derived from the same UWP codes, and thus no more random than the UWP, which T5 and MGT both use.

As to the rest, well.... since no-one here has a good record about our suspicions being right without access to the actual facts, and that the MGT codes are entirely based on said random generations, I'm not sure what else to say; and since I don't want to seem to be taking unanswerable shots at someone who has eschewed paying attention to me, correcting misstatements based on honest lack of data is about all I should aim for.

have a nice weekend all ! Check it out - its a nice product.