Expanded Ancients

[Nightmares about Minbari]

Hi all

I have long felt that the weakness of the SFOS Shadows and Vorlons could be solved by adding some varients to the fleets of both ancients to give them greater flexibility, rather than increasing the stat lines.

Now that Armageddon has upgunned them significantly some may feel that it is no longer necessary. HOwever personally I like both races, and see them as the most Iconic ships from the series and would still like to see expanded fleet lists for both.

Who else would like to see expanded fleet lists, and what would you like to see?

 

[LordClinto]

I would definently love to see either or both expanded!

Especially the dreadnoughts from AOG! (what priority they would go in is beyond me though!)

Maybe a carrier type or varient for the vorlons?

 

[Target]

It would be nice if they were usable in raid sized games. Vorlon carrier would be good & maybe a scout. Varients would be nice otherwise i find them a very boring fleet. I also depise the d6 damage thing.

 

[friendlyfire]

I'd be happy if anything came out for the ancients- bad mini or not (I'm that desperate for shadow minis unfortunately). I wouldn't even oppose Mongoose to using the B5 Wars large fighter minis for something.

 

[angelus2000]

I agree with expanding the Vorlon/Shadows fleet list but it needs to be done along the context of thier whole 'living' ship context. Like a War and Battle PL variant of the Arma PL Shadow ship thats not quite fully mature yet. I would however object to having more than 2 choices at any PL. It been noted before they should have hit they pinnacle of thier ships designs at this point so any more than 2 would be overdoing it.

 

[Silvereye]

specially the dreadnoughts from AOG! (what priority they would go in is beyond me though!)

Rate them to the same level as the other Ancients (e.g. mount a second lightning cannon / molecular slicer on them rather than more AD their power) - they'll easily be able to engage a second target each turn with their main beams then.

A couple of other hull types, e.g. Shadow Destroyers (based off the shadow scout), or dedicated carrier vessels might not go amiss either.

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

OK, things that seam to be missing from the fleets:

Vorlon carrier (no vorlon ship without personality comes with fighters)
I'm thinking a light cruiser hull armed with discharge guns rather than lightning cannon, but nursing a brood of fighters

Vorlon Scout (if the shadows feel the need for a scout, surely the Vorlons would too?)
I'm thinking Transport/Destroyer hull

Shadow combination ship (seen in one episode, several shadow ships joint together after destroying something [have to watch the series again to see what]) Would make for an interesting game dynamic, having an ancient level shadow ship that could split into the smaller shadow ship.
Alternatively use the armageddon stats for the combined shadow ship, and allow it to split into war or battle level shadow ships.

Shadow direct combat ship smaller than the hunter, raid or battle priority. The best option would be a young shadow ship, smaller than the full size ship.

Full shadow carrier, probably a varient of the hunter or shadow ship, reduced weaponry but full carrier rules for the fighters. The hunter seams like the more likely candidate here. The shadows use their main ships for direct combat, had the hunter/carrier to support/grow their fighters. The later hunter is actually a varient of the shadow carrier.

So what do people thing, which ideas appeal?

 

[LordClinto]

Would a Vorlon Scout have Stealth though? And at what rating?

 

[Alexb83]

Would a Vorlon Scout have Stealth though? And at what rating?

I'm surprised that ships other than Minbari have stealth at all, to be honest. When they do encounter the shadow scout, they only have trouble catching it, not targetting it.

Not that we see any other scouts, but I would've thought that other races should be limited to 2+ or 3+ stealth at the very best, especially the EA, who have yet to successfully reverse engineer effective stealth tech.

 

[Target]

There was a thread a while back on Shadows a month or 2 ago. I had suggested a Growth cycle for shadows just grabbed my ideas from that thread.

Start as fighters, ones that survive grow to be scouts ( Maybe they prey on each other)
Scouts then evolve into Hunter type ships (Males maybe) or Battlecrab ( Female which reproduce the fighters) which come in various sizes and starts all over again.
Maybe the Shadow Cloud is like a nesting ground as well, the missles are actually fighter eggs.
The fighters are feral shadow ships and once they reach a certain age (Scout) they get implanted with living being.
Could even have Heavy Fighters ( Mature fighters) about the same size as Whitestar fighter. This way you have a skirmish choice.

Vorlon Carrier or Nurse would be cool, A Vorlon heavy fighter would also be cool. Also like to have random personalties for both fleets.
If we had all these options they would be a cool fleet to use.

 

[ShadowScout]

Shadow combination ship (seen in one episode, several shadow ships joint together after destroying something...

Nope - one ShadowShip gets disabled (pilot goes into shock after taking some good damage from several H-Lasers), and another drags the "uncouscious" ShadowShip off the battlefield. Kinda. See "The Long, Twilight Struggle".

Shadow direct combat ship smaller than the hunter, raid or battle priority. The best option would be a young shadow ship, smaller than the full size ship.

Actually there is some debate as to if the "Hunter" is really a true ShadowShip. The unfilmed Crusade scripts from JMS and the Technomage Trilogy say it is a "Hybrid" - shadow skin over an EA structure.
As for a small Shady direct combat ship... well, the Scout hull was seen firing a slicer-beam type attack in "Into the Fire" - could be a combat-oriented variant...

I for one would like to see less ancient varients, but more powerful "candoitall" ships. For the Vorlons, scout & destroyer or cruiser & carrier rolled into one, and things like that... and for the Shadows, more ShadowShip sizes (we KNOW from the show that they come in different sizes and presumably power levels - the ship in "Crysalis" was a lot bigger compared to the T'Loth then the one in "Messages from Earth" or "Walkabout" compared to the WhiteStar...)

I'm surprised that ships other than Minbari have stealth at all, to be honest. When they do encounter the shadow scout, they only have trouble catching it, not targetting it.

Which of course may also have had something to do with a possibly vorlon-enhanced targeting systems on the WS. And luck.
Personally I think that ALL first ones should have stealth (after all, they are Millions of years ahead in the tech department, any tricks the younger races consider exceptional should be standard equipment for them).

 

[Ripple]

I have advocated before for more varients for the Shadows/Vorlons.

I would love to see these as races that could effectively play in the tournament setting so I do not have to buy into multiple fleets if I want to play the ancients. Same with campaign. This means you really need something in the battle and raid levels. Skirmish would be nice for filling in/sinking but that can actually be lived without.

Shadows need to lose the hunter, it was EA built after the shadows were gone. But they should have both multiple crab style ship sizes and a smaller hull that is attack capable. It could be a new design. Do not feel limited by the couple of ships we see in the show, we did not feel limited with every other race.

Vorlons are missing the heavier fighter/patrol ship we see in Third Space. That would make a nice skirmish ship maybe. And a carrier alone the lines mentioned above in the light cruiser catagory (course that was back when it was a battle class hull). A scout would also make sense, they are MORE advanced than us not less, surely they would not get rid of a dedicated platform, that platform would just get better. Maybe in that small heavy fighter looking thingie.

And get rid of the D6 damage system. Make them take damage but fix crits like the other ancients maybe.

Ripple

 

[Alexb83]

The Vorlon ship seen in thirdspace is millions of years old, and could probably be considered a defunct design by the third age.

Or perhaps not, if you assume they haven't changed their tech at all in the intervening time.

Then again, if Mongoose ever release 'the last great war' as a scenario pack, it might fit in well with some of the other ancients and older minbari ships vs. the shadows.

 

[Locutus9956]

stealth on scouts I believe is taken from their ELINT jamming abilities in B5Wars (it wasnt stealth as per the Minbari ships but it had much the same effect, ie it made it much harder to shoot the damn things )

And as for expanded first one fleet lists, again why not simply make ACTA versions of the ships in the AoG lists, they were good designs

Vorolon Carrier was a heavy cruiser varient, actually was every bit as good as the Hvy Cruiser but had fighters too (it cost more) In ACTA probably drop the firepower somewhat though

Volon Light Carrier was a Light Cruiser varient

Vorlon scout carrier was a destroyer varient- this one Id leave out personally,

Vorlon scout was a transport with better sensors

Vorlon Destroyer in B5Wars was actually a transport varient come to think of it

Shadow Destroyer was a scout varient (lost elint abilities (scout) an gained more guns)

Shadows also had a Carrier varient of the shadow cruiser with ALOT of fighters (the current cruiser in ACTA is actually more like this than the B5Wars regular cruiser)

The Shadows DID however also have a light cruiser (which in ACTA is more or less replaced by the hunter, but I would like to see in V2 maybe, the light cruiser come in at battle level or perhaps the hunter go back to that and the Light cruiser fill the War slot?)

 

[captainsmirk]

Volon Light Carrier was a Light Cruiser varient

Actually it was another Destroyer variant (unless there was another one in War of the Ancients which I don't have...)

Nick

 

[locarno24]

A vorlon carrier does actually make sense (probably in a light cruiser hull for scale), bearing in mind that the Vorlon fighters can't jump themselves (unlike the shadows, which can - and yet still feel the need for a carrier. For that matter they have superior technology and still field a scout....all things considered they seem far more tactically intelligent....)

 

[Wulf Corbett]

A vorlon carrier does actually make sense (probably in a light cruiser hull for scale), bearing in mind that the Vorlon fighters can't jump themselves

[Beavis]...hurr hurr hurr...[/Butthead]

(unlike the shadows, which can - and yet still feel the need for a carrier. For that matter they have superior technology and still field a scout....all things considered they seem far more tactically intelligent....)

The Shadows were interventionist, they needed to have some combat savvy, The Vorlons were isolationist, and rarely appeared in a tactical situation.

Anyway, the Vorlons DO have a Carrier... or at least a Campaign upgrade of 'Maternal...'

Wulf

 

[MongooseMatt]

This is something we are tweaking at the moment.

Shadows, for example, are actually going to lose a ship (there are good reasons for it, you'll see ). However, we are taking a good look at the Armageddon level Shadow Ship - this is clearly where the monster needs to be, but causes problems, especially for tournament players.

So, we are currently trying out a Young/Ancient Shadow Ship split, with the former being placed at War level. Think of it as the difference between a Shadow Ship that fought in the last war as compared to the one the EA resurrected.

Both look the same, but one is much harder! This allows people to use Shadows both as a tournament fleet and a butt-kicking Ancients force, in the same fleet list.

For the Vorlons, we are looking at a few options, but the current tweaks we have been making (more of which will be revealed later) are making them look quite good.

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

Wulf, two points on the Maternal personality.

1 Only available in campaigns, unless you have loads of ex-campaign ships kicking around that can be used for 'off the shelf' battles.

2 Only a 1 in 6 chance of getting the personality, and even if you do, you only get a single flight of fighters. This might be more worthwhile if you got a wing of fighters with the personality.

3 (OK, I can't count) The personality doesn't provide for any carrier trait capabilities, just makes the ship a 'casual carrier' like the ships of other races. Certainly what I'd like to see is a dedicated carrier of some sort. Possibly even two; A destroyer sized carrier, and a cruiser sized fleet carrier.

4 (whoops, they just keep coming) the same table is used for the shadows, which already have fighters on their ships, so doesn't balance out the Vorlons against the shadows.

Not a rant, certainly not personal, just my view on why the personality doesn't cut it.

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

thanks for the input matt, your post appeared while I was writing mine, my bad.

both solutions sound like the direction we (those players bothering to write here) want.

Can you give us an idea how many ship designs will be available to each fleet? Please, pretty please with a Vorlon on top?