Errata: Tech-World UWP and write up don't match - Aslan and Trojan Reaches both broke

[Nelphine]

Make hydrogen molecules intelligent on a gas giant, you'd need far more than Z not helpful at all of course, please ignore this post. Just made me laugh.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Right, but if it's not something obvious like pop code, it's completely reasonable for any given author to not know every nuance of every book. If it's something obvious, sure, it's an error. If it's not, then it's what the flex is designed for - and in this case, the assumption built into the game is that we give flex to the authors, just like we do to refs and tables.

40 years of rules, precedents, and published material is not reasonable for any author, or even publisher, to cover. As an example, the majority of what is on the travellermap was not created by Gier. It's completely reasonable for him to look at something, and say that makes no sense, and change it for a particular document hes writing, but not be able or willing to change it in every other published locale. And it's not reasonable for him to be handcuffed to something that was scribbled by someone 40 years ago, or even 2 years ago. Knowledge changes, rightfully, and when something is known better, we change it, just as you would with prep.

It is reasonable for him to be handcuffed that way. It is called "internal consistency". Why do people hate Star Wars after Lucas and Disney scrapped the entire Expanded Universe? For the same reason why, a writer should be handcuffed by what came before. Disney is learning that the hard way and trying to bring back lots of things from the Expanded Universe. Have you seen the trailer for the new Lego Star Wars movie? It is all about making fun the dumb choices they made killing off the Expanded Universe. If you don't want to be bound by past authors, write a different universe. This applies in Cinematic Universes as much as in Gaming Universes. Or write in a part of the timeline not covered by other authors. Then you are not bound in that way.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Make hydrogen molecules intelligent on a gas giant, you'd need far more than Z not helpful at all of course, please ignore this post. Just made me laugh.

Sorry. Can't ignore the post. It is funny.

 

[Condottiere]

Better than dinosaur juice.

Also, genocide.

 

[Nelphine]

Well, I (and apparently many) completely disagree with you. But.. I also enjoyed both 4th and 5th Ed d&d and would try to convince anyone who plays 1st or 2nd to play 5th. Some (but not all) who played 3.5 would enjoy 4th.

I use many of my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rulebooks for both 4th and 5th. 99% plus flex makes that very possible.

But! We fundamentally disagree. So I'm not sure we should continue. I appreciate the discussion though.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Well, I (and apparently many) completely disagree with you. But.. I also enjoyed both 4th and 5th Ed d&d and would try to convince anyone who plays 1st or 2nd to play 5th. Some (but not all) who played 3.5 would enjoy 4th.

I find it unplayable. I can enjoy the systems, but it isn't the Forgotten Realms anymore. So long as I play in a world I don't know, I can enjoy it.

I use many of my 1st, 2nd, and 3rd rulebooks for both 4th and 5th. 99% plus flex makes that very possible.

But! We fundamentally disagree. So I'm not sure we should continue. I appreciate the discussion though.

It does mean though that We will never be able to have any rules-based discussion, which is all I have on this board. So, that is sad. I learned long ago to hate flex playing in games where the rule of cool was everything and who cares what the rules say. I can't play that way. I need structure.

Edit: Being neurodivergent is not always fun. Usually, but not at times like this.

 

[Nelphine]

If it matters, it's specifically not the rule of cool. Rule of cool can be anything for anyone if that's fun. This is 'a hard rule as long as the rule doesn't cause problems for the table, where a table can include the publisher as a whole'.

It's meant to be as close to a hard rule as possible, while still allowing for flex when that's actually better for the game (which is not the same as arbitrarily what someone wants for fun).

But, I can understand how that nuance may not be relevant... but it matters to me!

 

[Nelphine]

I find it unplayable. I can enjoy the systems, but it isn't the Forgotten Realms anymore. So long as I play in a world I don't know, I can enjoy it.

It does mean though that We will never be able to have any rules-based discussion, which is all I have on this board. So, that is sad. I learned long ago to hate flex playing in games where the rule of cool was everything and who cares what the rules say. I can't play that way. I need structure.

Edit: Being neurodivergent is not always fun. Usually, but not at times like this.

I'm also going to keep trying to respond to your rules posts, but will try to keep this in mind so as to remain helpful.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I'm also going to keep trying to respond to your rules posts, but will try to keep this in mind so as to remain helpful.

Yeah. Thanks. Sorry I am kind of difficult. I like solid rules that enhance, not limit creative uses of those rules. Trade Codes really drive Me nuts. A world has a Population Code, why does it need a Population Trade Code as well? Just adjust the system to use the Population UWP Code and now the systems works better and is more streamlined. Those are the kinds of things I change in My game most often. Things that I wish Mongoose would do, but I won't hold My breath for. I do the same thing for Ht and Lt as well. Makes no sense to use a different Code for the same thing when one Code is derived from the other Code.

 

[Nelphine]

Yup on that I agree.

Clearly, we need to start a thread just for the two of us to try to improve trade codes.

IF we keep high pop low pop, then it should be based on pop vs size, probably modified by atmosphere.

 

[Vormaerin]

The basic trade codes are terrible. They are, sadly, designed for quick & easy trade when you don't have the worlds actually developed and only have the UWP as information. That's somewhat useful if trade is not important to your campaign and you just need something fast.

Proper trade codes require some level of detailing of the world beyond the UWP to make sense. But that's obviously a fair bit of work. But I would argue that making a Trader's almanac for your region if trade is actually important to your campaign would be part of the prep, so that's probably just a cost of that design decision.

I think that government and law level should factor fairly heavily into trade codes, while they basically have no effect currently. But even that is tricky as a survey of the UWP level. One religious theocracy might be the Amish, who don't want any of your stuff and another might be a prosperity gospel of maximizing personal wealth.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Yup on that I agree.

Clearly, we need to start a thread just for the two of us to try to improve trade codes.

IF we keep high pop low pop, then it should be based on pop vs size, probably modified by atmosphere.

I would only worry that going too far down that path leads to madness and complexity and a FFS version of trade. Ick! lol

If you include Size in the calculation though, you end up with Size 9 Pop 9 being equivalent to a Size 2 Pop 2.

I would say treat the UWP Pop Code as a stat, same as STR and DEX. Use the modifier from that for a Population Trade Modifier. Simple and everyone already has the stat modifier chart memorized so nothing new to learn. Then use that as a multiplier to have many tons of each good is available. More Pop, more goods available. Less Pop, less goods available. Doesn't affect the price of the good.

 

[tytalan]

Yeah. In cases like Techworld where they just have numbers that don't match with no explanation, that's a mistake. In cases like Cordan or Vanejen or Craw, where the details explain the inconsistency, then they are following the rules. I may decide I don't like that explanation. For instance, I am fine with the discrepancies and reasons on Vanejen, Craw, and Tarsus, but I am not convinced by Cordan. But the Cordan author is following the rules, I just dislike their design. Right from the beginning, Marc Miller has said that the UWP numbers are "guides, not statistics.". That is a necessity to make it possible to describe the myriad possibilities of Sci Fi in only a handful of numbers.

But Techworld does have an explanation for the changes it’s in the text description so it’s not a mistake

 

[tytalan]

The basic trade codes are terrible. They are, sadly, designed for quick & easy trade when you don't have the worlds actually developed and only have the UWP as information. That's somewhat useful if trade is not important to your campaign and you just need something fast.

Proper trade codes require some level of detailing of the world beyond the UWP to make sense. But that's obviously a fair bit of work. But I would argue that making a Trader's almanac for your region if trade is actually important to your campaign would be part of the prep, so that's probably just a cost of that design decision.

I think that government and law level should factor fairly heavily into trade codes, while they basically have no effect currently. But even that is tricky as a survey of the UWP level. One religious theocracy might be the Amish, who don't want any of your stuff and another might be a prosperity gospel of maximizing personal wealth.

Which is why we have the world builders handbook if you want better trade information check out the trade section starting on pg 186.

 

[Vormaerin]

But Techworld does have an explanation for the changes it’s in the text description so it’s not a mistake

The problem isn't that the robots don't count. The problem is that they changed the original 30 technicians supervising the robots to 4000 technicians supervising the robots without changing the pop 1 code. If there is an explanation for that in one of the various Mongoose versions of Techworld, I missed it. That's entirely possible, I don't use set my campaigns in the Reaches.

You can have 4000 people on a pop 1 world, but you have to clearly state why that is the case. Isolated population, illegal residents, aliens not counted as people, etc.

If you know of text providing such an explanation, feel free to post it.

 

[Condottiere]

Undeclared.

For tax evasion.

 

[tytalan]

The problem isn't that the robots don't count. The problem is that they changed the original 30 technicians supervising the robots to 4000 technicians supervising the robots without changing the pop 1 code. If there is an explanation for that in one of the various Mongoose versions of Techworld, I missed it. That's entirely possible, I don't use set my campaigns in the Reaches.

You can have 4000 people on a pop 1 world, but you have to clearly state why that is the case. Isolated population, illegal residents, aliens not counted as people, etc.

If you know of text providing such an explanation, feel free to post it.

“Experiments in using nanotechnology, cloning and other technologies of questionable legality are ongoing, and Tech-world is attracting increasing numbers of researchers who wish to pursue lines of inquiry not permitted in the Imperium“ I’d say increasing numbers of researchers indicate a large number of people moving there probably bringing their families with them so for every researcher your probably adding 2-4 dependents and last I seen Clones are also people. I never once considered the Robots as part of the population below TL 18 that’s silly. So how do you have 4000 people on a pop 1 world it’s simple the pop is either out of date (which fits a dynamic universe like CS) or these researchers and families are not considered permanent residents and the Clones are also not considered people. I generally follow Marc and the Traveller Charted Space is Dynamic and the UWP are not.

Despite what some have claimed Traveller doesn’t really do favor text in these descriptions.

 

[MasterGwydion]

“Experiments in using nanotechnology, cloning and other technologies of questionable legality are ongoing, and Tech-world is attracting increasing numbers of researchers who wish to pursue lines of inquiry not permitted in the Imperium“ I’d say increasing numbers of researchers indicate a large number of people moving there probably bringing their families with them so for every researcher your probably adding 2-4 dependents and last I seen Clones are also people. I never once considered the Robots as part of the population below TL 18 that’s silly.

Despite what some have claimed Traveller doesn’t really do favor text in these descriptions.

Both of those descriptions and UWPs are for the exact same date. Two conflicting things cannot or should not occupy the same space.

 

[Vormaerin]

“Experiments in using nanotechnology, cloning and other technologies of questionable legality are ongoing, and Tech-world is attracting increasing numbers of researchers who wish to pursue lines of inquiry not permitted in the Imperium“ I’d say increasing numbers of researchers indicate a large number of people moving there probably bringing their families with them so for every researcher your probably adding 2-4 dependents and last I seen Clones are also people. I never once considered the Robots as part of the population below TL 18 that’s silly. So how do you have 4000 people on a pop 1 world it’s simple the pop is either out of date (which fits a dynamic universe like CS) or these researchers and families are not considered permanent residents and the Clones are also not considered people. I generally follow Marc and the Traveller Charted Space is Dynamic and the UWP are not.

Despite what some have claimed Traveller doesn’t really do favor text in these descriptions.

That isn't explaining why the population is recorded differently. UWP are fuzzy, not irrelevant. It is possible to change UWPs. Regina went from TL 10 to TL12.

If they say "hey, most of the people on the planet are visiting scientists", that would be a reason why the pop code remained 1. But the author doesn't say that and the author doesn't say "while TechWorld generally at has a Pop 1, at this moment it's a 4 because of recent immigration. Whether that will last remains to be seen". The author just changed the description of the planet without doing any of that, as far as I can tell.

Dynamic is fine. Fuzzy is fine. Both are intended. But you have to do the work. ie explain what's going on to the people buying your product and why you are doing it that way. The purchaser should not need to invent the reasons themselves. They need to be provided. Because otherwise, the complainers are right and the numbers don't mean anything.

 

[Condottiere]

There's at least one kilocorporation in the Confederation, that's very Kaminoan.