Errata: Tech-World UWP and write up don't match - Aslan and Trojan Reaches both broke

[MasterGwydion]

That is a very good question.

Basically, it comes down to us not being completely ready to do the mass change at this point. It will likely come once we have a few things figured out (and Aslan codes themselves may need a revision before we do, as we are not absolutely wild about having a massive addition to Government codes), but this is not a 'soon' thing.

Yeah. This would be great!

The massive addition of Aslan Gov codes was added in 2009, so it is not like you are adding them now. They have been part of the system for at least 15 years. Heck, in the US, those rules are old enough to get a learners' driving permit. lol The Aslan government codes make sense as they are. I wouldn't go and change them unless you have better to replace it, which is doubtful, since the RAW are good and nicely Aslan-flavored. Everything else in this game is too human-focused. Every ship design is made for Size 5 creatures, but Aslan are not Size 5 creatures. They are Size 6, they have a fetish for open space and honoring the ancestors. The only part of this reflected in Aslan ship design? Add a shrine. That's it. No accounting for the race's increased size. No adding extra common areas to reflect the Aslan's love of open spaces?

So, the Aslan already get screwed over (in the sense that nothing in the game rules are Aslan-centric) by the rules in Traveller. Please don't take away one of the few mechanically unique things about them. What you need to do is take the things that you already have and actually incorporate them into the game.

If you want to rewrite something? Rewrite Law Level. It works fine for a "how much attention does law enforcement pay to you",, but it is an absolute disaster when trying to figure out what is illegal. Every planet has been described as different with different things being illegal all while keeping the same Law Level. Some ban information. Some ban weapons. Some ban Travellers. Some ban psionics. Some ban wearing the color red. None of this is reflected in Law Level, yet you give Us a chart that says here is an example of what is illegal on planets based on the UWP Law Level. Also, Law Level is not necessarily a check to see if authorities bother the PCs. It could simply be nosy neighbors because some high law level planets do not even have law enforcement personnel. Citizens handle everything themselves, maybe without even having written laws.

So far, the only thing I have found the Law Level stat to be useful for in determining how bad things are going to suck for the players when (not if. lol) they do something stupid. Law Level tells Me nothing else, because every other use a Law Level is such a mixed up, jumbled mess that it is unusable.

So, in conclusion, please don't touch the Aslan Government Codes. They work fine as is. What doesn't work is Traveller tying Government Code to Population Code and Law Level to Government Code. Those random rolls have caused more headaches than any other single thing in Traveller's history. Honestly, only humans fit in the Traveller system. None of the Law or Government Codes apply to the alien races. They are just too different. So, basically, humans have 15 different government types. Aslan have one. Droyne have one. Most have only 1. That is simply unrealistic to such a degree as to be unplayable. Each race needs it own Government Code chart. You could even keep the same codes you are using now (0-F), just make a new chart for each race to accurately reflect them. This won't help you with Law Level, but at least it will repair the disaster that is the alien government system.

 

[tytalan]

That is a very good question.

Basically, it comes down to us not being completely ready to do the mass change at this point. It will likely come once we have a few things figured out (and Aslan codes themselves may need a revision before we do, as we are not absolutely wild about having a massive addition to Government codes), but this is not a 'soon' thing.

I wouldn’t think that the Aslan’s would have the type of government spread that humanity does. Basically either one clan rules the world or multiple clans do. If it the first it’s classic feudalism if the second it’s a feudal council. I mean the Aslan’s culture is a lot more unified than humanities.

 

[Geir]

The Aslan government codes go all the way back to the original Aliens module in 1984. There's definitely been some back and forth between whether to use them or to use 'standard' government codes. I could argue it either way, but as Matt said, making a big change is not the easiest thing to do, and the Aslan codes do mostly map to 'human' equivalents, and since what the UWP represents is the effective functional government as opposed to what it calls itself (see: Democratic Socialist Republic of you name it) then they can be described with standard codes. The way Traveller Map does it is with supplementary four letter codes that actually provide more specific information, at least concerning which block of Tlaukhu clans a world belongs to.

 

[Talon Greyfeather]

If you want to rewrite something? Rewrite Law Level. It works fine for a "how much attention does law enforcement pay to you",, but it is an absolute disaster when trying to figure out what is illegal. Every planet has been described as different with different things being illegal all while keeping the same Law Level. Some ban information. Some ban weapons. Some ban Travellers. Some ban psionics. Some ban wearing the color red. None of this is reflected in Law Level, yet you give Us a chart that says here is an example of what is illegal on planets based on the UWP Law Level. Also, Law Level is not necessarily a check to see if authorities bother the PCs. It could simply be nosy neighbors because some high law level planets do not even have law enforcement personnel. Citizens handle everything themselves, maybe without even having written laws.

So far, the only thing I have found the Law Level stat to be useful for in determining how bad things are going to suck for the players when (not if. lol) they do something stupid. Law Level tells Me nothing else, because every other use a Law Level is such a mixed up, jumbled mess that it is unusable.

You can't expect a single law-level number to be the same for all planets exactly for the reasons you mentioned. This, to me, is a feature and not a problem. If your players are really worried, they need to do their research and they may have to get dirt-side for it to be accurate. Maybe a Planetary Government would be more accurate, but I can still see the color red being outlawed in one place and not the other and both being at the same law level.

Heck, we don't have consistent law levels between countries now. How would one expect that to be done on a galactic scale where the planet makes that determination not the Imperium? Not to mention Alien worlds - and now we need Alien Law Level charts to match your Alien government charts - and hope that they only change laws when there is a Scout survey.

That's a lot of charts ...

 

[Vormaerin]

As I said earlier.. simple and fuzzy or World Builder's Handbooks style complex and hard. That's why Traveller does both and the referee decides which to use or when to muddle up something in the middle.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You can't expect a single law-level number to be the same for all planets exactly for the reasons you mentioned. This, to me, is a feature and not a problem. If your players are really worried, they need to do their research and they may have to get dirt-side for it to be accurate. Maybe a Planetary Government would be more accurate, but I can still see the color red being outlawed in one place and not the other and both being at the same law level.

Heck, we don't have consistent law levels between countries now. How would one expect that to be done on a galactic scale where the planet makes that determination not the Imperium? Not to mention Alien worlds - and now we need Alien Law Level charts to match your Alien government charts - and hope that they only change laws when there is a Scout survey.

That's a lot of charts ...

If all LL represents is the level of scrutiny, you most certainly can. Traveller's mistake was trying to make the LL number do too much. Almost 0 systems in the 3I use the LL as it is written in the CRB. If LL is the level of scrutiny, which mechanically, that is how it is set up, then it has nothing to do with what is illegal or not. Why not? Because one number, 0-G or whatever the top end number is. This number has no relation to actually what is illegal. In the Imperium Psionics are illegal at LL 0 or 1, regardless of the local LL. In Aslan space, what weapons can be carried is often up to 3 levels different than the LL would indicate. On some worlds Travellers are illegal, or ideas, or freedom, or being of a certain race, etc. None of that is covered by LL, even though, according to the CRB, it is supposed to.

I only use LL to tell My players what the average level of "police harassment" is for that world. By "police harassment" I mean, customs inspections, how serious they treat lawbreakers (based on whatever is illegal on that world), how hard it is to get out of going to jail, etc.

Edit:
Most of you used the argument against fixing the Pop Code, because it only represents 1% of the worlds. Okay, fine. Here is an example that is over 90% of the published worlds.

 

[Sigtrygg]

I wouldn’t think that the Aslan’s would have the type of government spread that humanity does. Basically either one clan rules the world or multiple clans do. If it the first it’s classic feudalism if the second it’s a feudal council. I mean the Aslan’s culture is a lot more unified than humanities.

You are assuming every clan governs the same way.
That's like saying every human world is governed the same way because all humans govern in the same way.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You are assuming every clan governs the same way.
That's like saying every human world is governed the same way because all humans govern in the same way.

Aslan Clans are basically individual governments. No two clans are the same beyond following the same traditions. Same basic traditions anyhow. One of those being that the Clan Head's word is law. They are all basically feudal dictatorships. There is a lot less variation than their used to be. Before the Cultural Purges.

 

[Talon Greyfeather]

The only thing the Law Level numbers represent are how

If all LL represents is the level of scrutiny, you most certainly can. Traveller's mistake was trying to make the LL number do too much. Almost 0 systems in the 3I use the LL as it is written in the CRB. If LL is the level of scrutiny, which mechanically, that is how it is set up, then it has nothing to do with what is illegal or not. Why not? Because one number, 0-G or whatever the top end number is. This number has no relation to actually what is illegal. In the Imperium Psionics are illegal at LL 0 or 1, regardless of the local LL. In Aslan space, what weapons can be carried is often up to 3 levels different than the LL would indicate. On some worlds Travellers are illegal, or ideas, or freedom, or being of a certain race, etc. None of that is covered by LL, even though, according to the CRB, it is supposed to.

I only use LL to tell My players what the average level of "police harassment" is for that world. By "police harassment" I mean, customs inspections, how serious they treat lawbreakers (based on whatever is illegal on that world), how hard it is to get out of going to jail, etc.

Edit:
Most of you used the argument against fixing the Pop Code, because it only represents 1% of the worlds. Okay, fine. Here is an example that is over 90% of the published worlds.

Core Rulebook page 255:

As far as Travellers are concerned, the most common
restriction a government imposes is on the possession
of weapons and this is reflected on the Law Level table.
However, the referee might consider the stance of a
government for all of the following: Weapons, Drugs, Information, Technology, Travellers, Psionics, etc ...

Sounds to me like it's working as written for 100% of the published material and encourages referee discretion on everything else.

 

[MasterGwydion]

The only thing the Law Level numbers represent are how

Core Rulebook page 255:

As far as Travellers are concerned, the most common
restriction a government imposes is on the possession
of weapons and this is reflected on the Law Level table.
However, the referee might consider the stance of a
government for all of the following: Weapons, Drugs, Information, Technology, Travellers, Psionics, etc ...

Sounds to me like it's working as written for 100% of the published material and encourages referee discretion on everything else.

Then explain how all of Aslan space doesn't obey this rule with LL and weapons.

Clearly not the same. Clearly not working 100%. If you change the LL to reflect what weapons are allowed, then you have also changed to LL for how effective their law enforcement is.

 

[Condottiere]

Laws tend to be based on customs.

We've stopped duelling.

Mostly.

Also, casual murder is no longer tolerated.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Laws tend to be based on customs.

We've stopped duelling.

Mostly.

Also, casual murder is no longer tolerated.

That is why I say LL should only represent how aggressively the laws are enforced. It is the only part of Law Level that might be able to be considered universal. Everything else is dependent on the planet itself, or the starport in Imperial Space.

 

[Condottiere]

What's the term for it again, cascade?

Cultural norms are going to differ by species, and thereby laws.

If we have Charisma replace Social Standing, you probably have to do the same for Law Levels.

 

[MasterGwydion]

What's the term for it again, cascade?

Cultural norms are going to differ by species, and thereby laws.

If we have Charisma replace Social Standing, you probably have to do the same for Law Levels.

Laws, yes. They will change on every single planet. This cannot be represented by something as simple as the LL Code. The level of enforcement though, this is easy to represent by a simple UWP LL Code.

SOC simply means your standing within your society. The average human who owns no property, has no Social Standing in Aslan space unless they are abopted by an Aslan that does have TER. Then their SOC is their "father's" TER. So if you travel outside of "your society", your SOC means nothing.

 

[Condottiere]

I'm by no means an expert on the Aslan.

However, if their customs differ substantially from the human norm, then they need their own law levels, backed by their interpretation of what is permissible at each.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Also, I have gone back and reread the section on UWP in the CRB. Here is the direct quote for Population.

"The Population code measures the planet’s intelligent population. The Population code can be generalised as the number of zeroes following a one, so Population 6 indicates a population in the millions (1,000,000)."

Edit: It really should say, "number a decimal places following the first number" instead of following a 1, but whatever.

That is all. That is MgT2 rules. Not fuzzy. Not meaning economic strength. Pop only means the number of "intelligent" live on a planet. Whatever "intelligent" means.

So, while it may be "fuzzy" in y'all's game worlds, that is a house rule and not a MgT2 rule. Unless they contradicted themselves somewhere? Even Matt says it is "fuzzy" and he works at Mongoose, but the CRB does not say that.

 

[Talon Greyfeather]

Then explain how all of Aslan space doesn't obey this rule with LL and weapons.

Clearly not the same. Clearly not working 100%. If you change the LL to reflect what weapons are allowed, then you have also changed to LL for how effective their law enforcement is.

I would like to determine what resources you are using for Aslan space so we can at least talk apples to apples.

Looking further up on page 255:

The Law Level of a planet represents the relative force
of law extant on the world. A high Law Level indicates
that visitors to the world will have their activities curtailed.
Law Level determines two things in particular – what it
is illegal for Travellers to possess on the world and the
likelihood the Travellers will run afoul of the law.

So yes, I think that meets the definition. A bit further down comes the original part I posted which to me still makes sense - it's up to the referee to decide.

Want to be sure, then put boots on the ground, ask your contacts, etc. Otherwise, enter at your own risk.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I would like to determine what resources you are using for Aslan space so we can at least talk apples to apples.

Looking further up on page 255:

The Law Level of a planet represents the relative force
of law extant on the world. A high Law Level indicates
that visitors to the world will have their activities curtailed.
Law Level determines two things in particular – what it
is illegal for Travellers to possess on the world and the
likelihood the Travellers will run afoul of the law.

So yes, I think that meets the definition. A bit further down comes the original part I posted which to me still makes sense - it's up to the referee to decide.

Want to be sure, then put boots on the ground, ask your contacts, etc. Otherwise, enter at your own risk.

Alien Module 1: Aslan pg 152.

"Aslan law levels are generated by a 2d6 roll without modifications; government type has no effect on law level. The code means much less for governing weaponry which may be carried than it does for human worlds; it may be considered a guideline to what is commonly carried on that world, with no particular penalty extended to carrying weaponry of 2 or 3 levels lower on the human table.The real use for law level, however, is to represent the touchiness of the local clan government. It continues to show the frequency with which authorities may be encountered and should also be used as the basis for determining the initial reaction of any official encountered. Subtract the law level from 15; this number is the reaction result for most officials who might be encountered in the line of duty. Other reactions and the interaction of characters and NPCs proceed according to the encounter rules."

It doesn't list what is illegal. It lists what is commonly carried. This is not at all the same as what you describe.

 

[MongooseMatt]

"The Population code measures the planet’s intelligent population. The Population code can be generalised as the number of zeroes following a one, so Population 6 indicates a population in the millions (1,000,000)."

So, while it may be "fuzzy" in y'all's game worlds, that is a house rule and not a MgT2 rule. Unless they contradicted themselves somewhere? Even Matt says it is "fuzzy" and he works at Mongoose, but the CRB does not say that.

"Generalised"

There's your fuzziness

Seriously, rules like this must have a degree of fuzziness, and we intentionally put language like that into the rulebooks, simply because the core rules have to be able cover all situations in all universes.

 

[MasterGwydion]

"Generalised"

There's your fuzziness

Seriously, rules like this must have a degree of fuzziness, and we intentionally put language like that into the rulebooks, simply because the core rules have to be able cover all situations in all universes.

Generalized, meaning several things grouped together, but not violating its definition. "Fuzzy", meaning it has no defined definition. These are not the same Matt. Saying a Population 6 is between 1,000,000 and 9,999,999 is what makes Population a generalization. Saying a Population 6 world has however many people you want it to have, is "fuzzy" and makes the stat meaningless. Generalization is a defined mechanic. "Fuzzy", as it is used in this conversation, is not a mechanic. Do you know where "Fuzzy" is written into the game rules? I can think of an easy example, Boons and Banes. That is a way for a Referee to allow "fuzziness", but it has a defined mechanic. Here is another way "Fuzziness" can be used in a game, Difficulty. Setting the Diff of a task is "fuzzy" and can be set however the Referee wants it to be. This is written in the rules, to allow for that flexibility that you say (and I agree) is required. Nowhere in the rules does it say that a Single Turret Beam Laser does 50DD in damage. Nowhere in the CRB does it say that a Population 6 world can have other than between 1,000,000 and 9,999,999 people. This is simply breaking the rules of the game. Changing the rules is fine, see Rule Zero, but not having a rule at all is not fine, and a rule is not a rule if it is not consistently applied. If the rule changes at whim, then it is not a rule.

You know what rule covers Population Matt? The Population UWP Code. It already works in all situations in all universes. 1,000,000 to 9,999,999 functions everywhere. Where does that not function Matt? You know what happens if a Ref wants a population on that world that is not between 1,000,000 and 9,999,999, but the world is Pop 6? They change the number. It is already right there in the rules. Rule Zero. Rule Zero is for players and Referees, not writers. Writers should have to follow the rules as written. If not, then one product is not compatible with another. If you are trying to write books for the same system, they should all use the same rules. Optional and alternative rules are fine (Traveller Companion is a good example of this and I love the book), but the writers should be using the Base Rules, because that is what everyone has at home.

I worry that I am not explaining this clearly enough. Play whatever game you want, obviously, but do not tell Me that this quote, "The Population code measures the planet’s intelligent population. The Population code can be generalized as the number of zeroes following a one, so Population 6 indicates a population in the millions (1,000,000).", means that a Pop 6 can have only 1,000 people on it. That is not in the rules. Do not tell Me that a TL-12 Fusion Generator puts out 14 Power per ton, when the book clearly says 15. 15 Power Points per ton is a generalization of how much "electrical" power is put out, but it is not fuzzy. If you want TL1-12 Fusion Plants to only put out 14 Power per ton, so be it, change it, but don't tell Me that it means both 15 per ton and 14 per ton. This is simply not true. I am using the term, generalized, as it is used in the book. Nowhere in the book do the rules say that a 6 isn't a 6. That is false information and gaslighting.